The Labour Party

[Suff]

Suff is right to point out that if we renationalise DB, RWE and the other Government-led EU utilities, we will be in a direct confrontation with France and Germany. But my gut feeling is that British companies have been prevented from taking large stakes in EU infrastructure - Germany in particular has been very loathe to privatise their rail network, despite EU promoting competition - correct, Suff?

Absolutely correct. When Vodafone bought Mannesmann, the Germans came out in the street and demonstrated because it was "unthinkable" that a UK company could buy a "German" institution. Yes it went ahead but at such punitive government restrictions that Vodafone never got out of it what it should and neither did Germany. Because, today, Germany remains one of the most expensive mobile phone markets in the EU.

But this is the debate I want to have. Not "oh we're going to nationalise it and stuff the frogs and the krauts". The debate I want is this.

If we want to stay in the EU, we need to re-balance our businesses and utilities so that the state can sponsor the take-overs of other EU institutions. Just as France and Germany are. Not some brain dead 1950's left wing "stuff the rich" thing like Corbyn is proposing. There is a balance out there which allows the state to benefit the companies and allows the state to control the flow of money by first of all investing in the companies. That's why EU utilities don't have such huge executive pays. Because they are controlled by the government, not through regulation but by shares and representation on the board.

If we don't want to change the way we work, then it's time to get the hell out of the EU. Because if we don't get out and we don't change then we will be swallowed whole.

Some real debate would be good. Instead of this insipid talking around non, or even minor, issues.

Take the utilities as a case in point. Why are they so expensive? Because the UK is a revenue centre, not a cost centre. Because of heavy regulation at home, French and German utilities find it hard to make a decent profit. So they squeeze the unregulated periphery. Low investment, high payback.

Why can't we talk about that. Why can't we talk about mirror regulation? French company owns UK utility, then UK rules on investment, profit and services have to match French rules.

Fair's fair right?

Instead we talk about being the "Big Bad Wolf" of re nationalisation at huge expense. For what? We'll still have to put back in what these French and German utilities did not invest over the last decade.

Now if Corbyn wants to talk about regulating these utilities to the point where the French and Germans actually "Give" the utilities back to our government, then you're talking. That's EU politics. That's the smart way to do things.

Corbyn may sound "clever" but he's just another Labour idiot going to get us into another Labour mess. Because he really doesn't understand what he's dealing with. Worse, he thinks it' doesn't matter if he understands or not.

Did I make clear my issues with people like Corbyn?

[Workingman]

Suiff, the debate you want is about the country and its governance. It is no doubt one that has to be had, but I think it is more likely to get wind in its sails nearer the EU referendum

The Labour party is not in power and does not even have a leader. The current debate is about who that leader wil be, and because of his meteoric rise it has largely become about Corbyn - man and ideologies. The other three are a sideshow and barely get a mention.

Whoever is chosen to hold the poisoned chalice Labour is unlikely to be elected for many years. However, it still has a job to do in UK politics and that is to be HM's official opposition. That opposition needs to be a strong one and is more likely to be so under Corbyn than under Burnham, Cooper or Kendall. When I think that those four are all Labour has to offer I have to be careful not to shake my head off.

[Suff]

True.

But my biggest issue is that what Corbyn is saying is not being robustly challenged by people who want to talk about the real issues of the UK inside the EU.

Labour wants to stay in the EU. Therefore they _must_ address the issues within that theme.

Anything else is a lie. Corbyn is lying in grand style. His opponents are not addressing the core issues on which they can uncover Corbyn's deceit. So either they want to lie to us too or they have no clue what is really going on.

End conclusion. Labour are dysfunctional and not fit for purpose. Do we want that as the main opposition to the Tories? We have 5 years to build a credible opposition to the Tories before the next election. Nobody in this competition has proved themselves worthy of the task.

My take? Vote in Corbyn and destroy yourselves so that we can get back to forming a viable second party to oppose the Tories. Because you are right, the Tories do need a strong and viable opposition or many of their back benchers will drag us back to the 1930's. Much as I am an independent businessman who runs his own company; I am also a father and a grandfather, my social responsibility radar is a touch higher than much of the Tory back bench.

[Workingman]

The problem with building a new opposition is that only Labour has the core voters and the infrastructure to do so.

I am not sure how many people still support UKIP now the election is over, but even if it could become the opposition it would be further to the right than the Tory party.

The LibDems are now destroyed. They probably do have the infrastructure and a set of core voters, but they are spread so thinly throughout the country as to be non-existant.

If Corbyn gets in and Labour splits things will only get worse - opposition wise. Even if the defectors join the LibDems there is no guarantee the voters will follow them.

The choices are not good. We get a weak 'Tory Lite' under Cooper, Kendall or Burnham, if the elite and media have their way, or no opposition at all.

[Suff]

The choices are not good. We get a weak 'Tory Lite' under Cooper, Kendall or Burnham, if the elite and media have their way, or no opposition at all.

Agreed. But there will come a time when it is all so broken that the only alternative is to discard it and start again somewhere else. Perhaps not from the beginning, but somewhere.

If it takes 15 years of Tories to get them to sort themselves out then that is a pain threshold we're going to have to meet. The economy will be sound but people will be burned and I really do know you will be in that category and I wish that I could mitigate it. That's an honest assessment. I've been there with the Tories cutting benefits and making those out of work poorer. Whilst I was out of work. Labour will give you money. Tories will give you opportunity.

I made the decision then and I think I would make the same decision today.