The Head of Vauxhall isn't happy

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The Head of Vauxhall isn't happy

Postby cromwell » 14 May 2021, 11:44

Driving could become reserved for the rich, as countries around the world ban the sale of petrol and electric cars.
Carlos Tavares, head of Stellantis who own Vauxhall said that going electric could make cars too expensive for some people and may even fail to reduce carbon emissions.
Mr Tavares said "I can't imagine a democratic society where there is no freedom of mobility because it's only for rich people, with everybody else using public transport".
Car makers are confident that they can make cars that meet environmental goals, but at a cost. A petrol Vauxhall Corsa costs from £16,000 whilst the electric Corsa E costs £26,000.

But here's the interesting bit.
Speaking at a Financial Times conference Mr Tavares hit out at governments for forcing the automotive industry to switch to electric cars rather than considering other low carbon tech, which might have been cheaper and easier to produce..
He said "The scientific decision on the choice of this technology has not been made by the automotive industry".

Electric vehicles are typically 300kg to 500kg ( :shock: ) heavier because of their battery systems, said Mr Tavares, meaning they need more energy to power as a result. If they are charged up using power from coal or oil fired power stations this could mean that emissions are ultimately higher.

I'd also point out that China manufactures lots of cars too, using energy produced from coal fired power stations.

It would be interesting to know who did decide on EVs to the exclusion of virtually every other alternative. I don't suppose we'll ever find out though.
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Re: The Head of Vauxhall isn't happy

Postby Workingman » 14 May 2021, 15:07

I am not a fan so I had better leave this well alone. I have stents after one major heart attack and another less serious episode and I do not want to try for a third. I'll buy one of the last petrol or diesel cars off the production line and run it off its axles, by which time I will be ready for my box and pyre, or maybe I will not last that long. I certainly will not ever own / run an EV.
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Re: The Head of Vauxhall isn't happy

Postby Suff » 14 May 2021, 19:06

Let me see if I can address some of this.

First of all, the vehicle manufacturers are whinging like mad because they sat on their hands and looked at their profit margins for 20 years. They didn't go electric because they were scared that sales would be cannibalised in their highly profitable FF vehicles with an uncertain take up of their electric brands. Who pays for that? All those people who chose governments who said "no we're not doing FF vehicles for much longer".

Daimler CEO:

"Everyone knows it takes more labour hours to assemble and build a combustion based powertrain compared to an electric powertrain,"


So when did a vehicle manufacturing CEO put jobs before the fortune of the company? When he thinks that scaring the Unions will allow him to do what he wants to do instead of what he knows he must.

"The scientific decision on the choice of this technology has not been made by the automotive industry"


You're kidding me right? It is like saying that the scientific decision for moving away from coal power was not made by the coal produces and electricity generating companies. The guy is a muppet.

Electric vehicles are typically 300kg to 500kg ( :shock: ) heavier because of their battery systems


Yes current cell energy levels are at around 250wh/kg. Developments in progress will raise that to 350wh then 500wh. 500wh is considered the nirvana level for electric flight, let alone vehicles. As the industry moves on, these weights will fall. But the point is that the work will have been done, the engineering will be in place and vehicles will extend range by up to 100% for the same weight or half the weight for the same range. It is a direct plug in advancement.

But, or course, if you don't go there, then there will never be a benefit because battery innovations won't happen and we'll be stuck with fossil burners for 5 decades.

If they are charged up using power from coal or oil fired power stations this could mean that emissions are ultimately higher


This is total bullshit and he knows it. Even when charged on coal, the worst; because EV powertrains are so much more efficient than his fossil burners, which can be as low as 25%, EV's emit less CO2 than fossil burners. There is literally no category in which an EV will emit more CO2 than a non hybrid fossil burner. Even with that said, the second an EV gets onto renewable energy it emits NO CO2. Something which cannot be said for his fossil burners.

Let us totally blow that FUD out of the water. Average (yep including the dirty stuff), CO2 emitted per KW/h, on the UK grid, as of 2020, is 233g. 1KW/h or electricity, on average, will drive a modern EV 3.5 miles. That is 5.6km. If you divide your 233g by 5.6, you get 41.6g per km of CO2. If you have not been blind, deaf and dumb over the last year, you will know that the EU automotive industry is struggling massively to try and get their fleet average over 95g of CO2 per km. Hardly what he is talking about. Even in Germany where their power is ~380g per kw/h, it is still only 68g/km.

Now comes the bit I've been talking about for some time. The UK grid is reducing CO2 year on year. So that 233 could easily be 200 in 4 years and 150 in the next 5. Tell me what vehicle you can buy, today, that will emit 36% less CO2 in 9 years time.

As for...

Car makers are confident that they can make cars that meet environmental goals, but at a cost. A petrol Vauxhall Corsa costs from £16,000 whilst the electric Corsa E costs £26,000.


The average price of a Fiat 500 over the EU is €20,000.

Also, yes, you can get a Golf sized VW ID.3 for around £27,000 with government subsidies. It will drive you 250 miles, it will cost you, fuel wise, at a rate of 120mpg known as 120MPGe for the equivalent cost. It means every mile you drive you pay half the money. But you will find it hard to buy one. Why? Dealers don't want to sell you one. Why the hell not you ask? Because there is virtually ZERO servicing on an EV. Once they have sold it, they have no warranty work and no future business. Even worse for them is that the powertrains are engineered for 1m miles with no oil change or maintenance. Reducing cost to the owner.

If you drive 20,000 miles per year, your fuel costs are £1,300 per year less than if you drove a 55mpg petrol or diesel car at £1.20 per litre.

Then of course you have the University of Cambridge stats on air pollution.

23,500 attributable deaths from NO2 (nitrogen dioxide, for which diesel engines are particularly blamed)


You won't be killing anyone with your EV and these NO2 emissions which kill are not from the power stations but right on the street.

It would be interesting to know who did decide on EVs to the exclusion of virtually every other alternative. I don't suppose we'll ever find out though.


We already know. Nobody. The Automotive industry had a choice and they did nothing. There are two things which happened.

1. Governments gave subsidies to buyers of "electrified" vehicles. Not just EV's but also hybrids. Notably Vauxhall has taken extreme benefit of that with Hybrid electric vehicles which kept them out of the fines with the EU last year. But it was a choice thing. If people didn't choose to buy electric, they had plenty of other choice. But they did want electric vehicles. Millions of them. So companies like Tesla and Kia and, now, VW, plus a whole bunch of companies in China, decided to make them in volume. The more they made the more they sold.

Witness the pandemic when EV sales went up but traditional vehicle sales went down. Not because someone "decided" they had to make EV's. Nope, because people wanted them and that was despite the UK government dropping their grant.

2. The EU did not ban fossil fuel vehicles. It enacted a law which stated that if they were going to make FF burners, that their average emissions had to be 95g of CO2 per km driven. What was the industry response. Especially from Peugeot! It was to make electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles.

After all of that, the UK decided to take a stand and say that only what the car companies were currently doing was going to be acceptable in the next 10 and 15 years respectively.

You do know that Stellantis is one of the largest manufacturers of Electric and Electric hybrid vehicles in Europe? Who forced them to make them? Nobody. They just can't make FF burning vehicles which average 95g CO2 per km driven without having pure battery EV and hybrid in the mix.

Stop talking MR Tavares, your nose is growing.
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