So we blinked...

[Suff]

The refrain of the Brexiteer. The refrain of the Remainer is "we should never have voted to leave", even after we see the true face of all the other States.

[Workingman]

Every single review of budgets and payments in the EU had a component which was designed, solely to screw the UK rebate.

Every single funding request which was approved by the EU, had a rider on it that a large chunk of the money came out of the UK rebate. Meaning that every other country in the EU could get funding form the EU, but the UK d to fund the largest share itself until the rebate was used up, then the EU would der funding UK requests.

I do not remember anything along those lines. They are presented as facts so there will be a paper trail in order to check, something like 97/268EEC or 2007/62EC. I made those up so do not go looking for them, but the real ones will be out there supporting the above facts, if they exist. A few links would be nice

Where the EU has 0% tariff access to the things they want to sell UK and the UK has tariff barriers similar to CETA for the goods we sell to the EU.

I thought that Project Fear was owned by Remain. Our politicians have told us over and over that we are not going for a CETA type deal or a Norwegian one or a Swiss one. What we are going for, according to May, is a deep and special relationship. If we sign up for such a deal as described above we will know for sure that our lunatics are in charge of our asylum. If we go to WTO rules such a thing could not happen, same as we could not put 35% on German cars or 30% on French wines.

When it comes to in/out I voted Remain making me a Remainer and that is how I shall remain. However, I have always been frustrated that as the second biggest economy in the EEC/EU we were never wholeheartedly involved... and that was not because we were being shafted by the EU. We chose to be a bit-part player when we could have made alliances with others to break or reel in the Franco-German duopoly. Instead we sat in the corner sulking and sucking our thumb.

[Suff]

I thought that Project Fear was owned by Remain. Our politicians have told us over and over that we are not going for a CETA type deal or a Norwegian one or a Swiss one. What we are going for, according to May, is a deep and special relationship.

I'm not into any kind of "fear". This is reality. I've posted these links before and I don't have time to go trawling again right now. Here is the chain. Wikipedia for the discussion on the rebate and how it works. Follow the Wikipedia links to the EU documents which admit the way they are reeling in the UK rebate.

This is not FUD, this is the stuff we wilfully refuse to read on how the EU deals with the UK.

As for a trade deal....

Ah, yes, this is strongly a Remain refrain. We're going for.

Now let's do a reality check. We will get whatever is on offer. Unless we make it so unpalatable for the EU to not offer us what we want.

How do Remainers want to get a better offer? They want to lie down, roll over and give the EU anything it wants.

How do you actually get anything out of the EU?? You kick them in the nuts and keep doing so until the pain is so much that they give in.

When it comes to in/out I voted Remain making me a Remainer and that is how I shall remain. However, I have always been frustrated that as the second biggest economy in the EEC/EU we were never wholeheartedly involved... and that was not because we were being shafted by the EU. We chose to be a bit-part player when we could have made alliances with others to break or reel in the Franco-German duopoly. Instead we sat in the corner sulking and sucking our thumb.

I know that this is your opinion and, to a degree, I do share the fact that we could have done more.

But here is the reality. The EU is not a Franco German hegemony. The EU is a Franco German Led coalition of minor states who back the Franco German leadership to the hilt every time the UK challenges it. Italy, solidly Franco German, Spain, even more so they don't want UK farming practises competing with their farming regime, they get 1bn euro a year to keep that little piece of the action. Spain veto's the UK every single time it wants anything. The only time they didn't was when Maggie stopped paying. Leaving the Spanish with bills they couldn't pay because the EEC didn't have the money to give them.

Belgium. Solidly Franco German.

Where does the UK get its support? Scandinavia mainly and Netherlands to a smaller degree. Or, in short, the remaining strong Monarchies.

Whilst the UK could have curbed the worst of the excesses of the EU, the UK, due to its first past the post and polar opposite parties, has been a poor friend to those in the EU. Denmark looked to the UK to block the Maastricht treaty from ever taking purchase. Major signed that one. Many of the smaller Balkan states looked to the UK to block Lisbon. Brown signed that.

The UK is the worst fit of any country in the EU. So it is time to get out and make our own way in the world again before we are lobotomised as a nation.

It was a grand dream when it was there but it was never more than a dream.

Pay the price and get out. Stuff their trade deals if they want to sell us 2:1 in goods then they're going to have to see reason.

The main problem in the UK leaving, today, is those who still don't realise what we were in and what we need to do to get out.

Which is why we blinked.

[Workingman]

I'm not into any kind of "fear".

Yes you are.

The links I asked for from your first posts will not appear because your claims do not exist. You have never posted the links and I am not going to look for them. If they exist post them.

They are not fact, they are opinion. You did a good bodyswerve in not answering.

The same goes for the tariffs thing. It is nonsense with no basis in reality. The UK and EU can do a bilateral trade deal. Do you honestly think that we would sign up to a 0% tariffs their way and some unknown % our way? Get real. If we do it will be a Brexiter deal, but none of you want to take ownership of that, do you?

If any group needs a reality check it is you Brexiteers. Long before Brexit emerged you and your little Englander (British) brigade worked behind the scenes to make sure that the UK was never in the heart of the EU project. I cannot give any links because it is only my opinion, but there is plenty of evidence to back me up. My opinion is that we could and should have been at the heart of the EEC and EU but the proto Brfexit forces prevented us from taking our place at the top table. Well done.

[AliasAggers]

I think it would be wise to close this discussion before we come to blows!!!

[Workingman]

I think it would be wise to close this discussion before we come to blows!!!

Suff and I might argue hard Aggers, but we would not fall out or come to blows, especially when we agree on so many other things.

[medsec222]

Its all taking much to long to get things moving now, hence the frustration.

[Suff]

Agreed. We won't come to blows. We do agree on so many other things.

I'm not at home this weekend and also not working so I will chase down those links.

But it is useful to remember that, personally, I am not invested in Brexit, it is very little to me personally because I have been EU centric for 2 decades now and am well aware how to deal with the realities of Brexit.

However I do feel a debt of responsibility to my country of birth and that includes fighting to avoid pitfalls, it would seem, that the British want to fall into.

[Suff]

Meds, this is the part I tend to stand with WM on. We decided to negotiate. This negotiation is going to take as long as the EU wants it to.

The only thing the UK can do unilaterally is walk away and even that will take 2 years.

We have been at this for 8 months out of 24. In EU terms what we have been able to agree so far is moving at light speed.

Just because the press and the opposition witters on about it taking too long, does not mean it is true.

Let's face it, even utter capitulation will take another 16 months.

[AliasAggers]

I can't understand how former British politicians could have had the incompetence to get us
tied up in such a fashion, when all we were interested in at that stage was a Common Market.

We never wanted to join the United States Of Europe. We were tricked into it. If this is what
democracy means, we would be better off without it. I bet the Queen wouldn't have got us in
such a blasted mess.

Politicians? - High Wickham, as we used to say.