Two minutes.

[medsec222]

I agree with your analysis Suff, but I can't laugh about it. I am horrified at the obstacles that some of the remainers throw in the path of the Government to try and derail the process. We have made a choice, we are leaving the EU, and need to get the best possible outcome. Consequently we all need to pull together to make sure the UK gets the best possible deal, anything less only serves to undermine the UK. I feel insulted when it is suggested that those who voted leave are intellectually inferior and have no idea what they voted for. I think most people expected some sort of upheaval and perhaps slower growth in the economy after Brexit but are prepared to weather the storm to get the end result - control of our own laws, control of immigration, and freedom to trade with the rest of the world.

[Workingman]

May I just point out that no matter how much we Remainers spit and froth and throw tantrums, as we are always accused of, we have no influence, zero, zilch nada, over the government's performance when acting out "the will of the people".

We cannot change a damned thing, and nor can the minority Remainer press, we have, as we are often told, to "suck it up".

The current irony is that it is pro Brexit MPs causing the government the most problems. Well, that and the government itself. Rumour has it that only five signatures are needed to make a challenge on Theresa May's leadership and that the vast majority of the signatories are hard Brexitieers demanding a Hard Brexit.

Of course if she falls we could easily have another general election, and nobody knows what the outcome or fallout from that would be, but it would obviously be the fault of us Remainers whichever way it goes. Good job we have thick skins, broad shoulders and are able to take the flak.

[Kaz]

Well said Frank. It seems to me that we are seeing far more spleen and tantrums from the pro Brexiters

[Suff]

When I say Remainers in this context, I am talking about those with power and influence. Lib Dem MP's, Labour MP's, Tory EUphiles and the periphery who mainly want to remain. I'm also talking about the Civil Servants who are ramainers to the bitter end. Also the Treasury, the CBI and a whole host of pressure groups are also Remainers.

The plebs? Not interested, they'll only have a say if a second referendum happens and nobody is going to want to be responsible for that. Well nobody Credible, the Lib Dems would love to trigger one but Corbyn never will.

As for those 5 votes? They've hovered up the EUphiles who had a majority Remain vote. To get those other 5 they'd have to find someone who would be willing to stand up in 2020 and tell the voters why they screwed the Tory Leadership to bring down Brexit. In my experience Political Suicide is something the Tories are least capable at.

We have 14 months until E day. Nobody is going to thank us for a leadership competition in that time. The EU whinged like hell about the last one and we hadn't even triggered Brexit. To trigger a leadership competition now would put back the negotiations with the EU until the Summer. Leaving, in EU terms, absolutely no time to agree terms and get the EU27 to vote on it and ratify it.

If you think this week, with accusations that Civil Servants are falsifying post Brexit economic reports (then, by implication leaking them in order to force a vote to break the government again), is uncommon. Think again. This is going to happen more and more. The more it happens the more the Tories will close ranks.

As for being bitter or spleen venting? I'm enjoying this hugely. Hell, yes I get really mad when someone tries to palm the UK off as a Banana Republic, only able to stand on it's own because of the EU. But I'm amused because I'm still in that position where if we exit I get what I want. If we remain, I get what I need.

What amuses me no end is the fact that if I get what I want, then over 50% of the UK get what they want. If I get what I need, then nobody (except for people like me), get what they want because the UK relationship with the EU will be forever changed and for the worse for the UK.

That is not spleen venting. That is dark satire.

Also let us think about this for a moment. We have very senior Tories saying that the Civil Service is trying to derail Brexit. We have evidence crawling out of the woodwork that the FBI has been playing fast and loose with investigations into Trump and that the Special Council investigating Trump fired a FBI team member who wanted more investigation into Clinton when he ran both investigations into Trump and Clinton during the election.

Cromwell will tell you that someone, somewhere has their hand up our backs and is nodding our heads and using our vocal cords for their own ends.

If this attempt to derail Brexit is not part of that whole "You can only have leaders and governments and as much freedom as we want to give you", I would be highly surprised. Let's be open about this. There are very powerful influences in the world who want the UK muzzled by the EU. The best way to do that is to keep us in the EU.

All highly entertaining.

Here's a thought to be leaving with.

Just exactly what did they have on Cameron that would have forced him to bail on Brexit? He did the only thing he could do. Resign. He would never have been allowed to enact Brexit and would have taken the full ire of the country for it.

And if you want to go down that path, an 11th hour dissolution of Brexit would leave the UK exponentially worse off but massively more under the influence of the EU.

Be careful what you wish for. You may get it. I might just die laughing, but.... I might not.

[Workingman]

It's not going their way, Kaz, whatever their way is, who knows, so it has to be somebody else's fault: Makes sense, from their point of view.

The impending disaster is all down to us Remainers: innit?

When I say Remainers in this context, I am talking about those with power and influence. Lib Dem MP's, Labour MP's, Tory EUphiles and the periphery who mainly want to remain. I'm also talking about the Civil Servants who are ramainers to the bitter end. Also the Treasury, the CBI and a whole host of pressure groups are also Remainers.

None of whom are in any position to change anything. Pressure groups, yes, but how many of them have a vote in cabinet, in government? Not one.

The referendum result is settled and neither Remaines nor Leavers now have any say in the eventual outome, no matter how many and how hard we try. We will now get what this useless government 'negotiates' for us.

Remainers will work with it, we have to, goodness knows what the Leavers will do if it does not meet their (undefined) desires.

[Suff]

Out of that list, the group with the most power are the Tory EUphiles. They, quite literally, have the power to scupper Brexit and try to force a different oucome

The only reason they have not, yet, is not because their voters won't vote for them, but that the Tory Party would destroy them for not following the party line.

I see a growing situation, manufactured by the press, the leaks and the EU themselves, to create the justification for just that move.

Expect Juncker to look more like a large preening Tomcat, surrounded by feathers, the longer this continues.

[Kaz]

It's not going their way, Kaz, whatever their way is, who knows, so it has to be somebody else's fault: Makes sense, from their point of view.

The impending disaster is all down to us Remainers: innit?
.

You would think so Frank Considering Brexiteers got what they voted for, they are doing a lot of bellyaching about it All of this upheaval, uncertainty and division for pretty much SFA!

[Workingman]

Kaz, the position, for me, is now very simple.

I voted to remain and I still think that is our best option. However, it has to be remain in full where we keep our rebate and our veto, where we stay out of Schengen and the €, but where we still sit on committees, make alliances, and can help to steer the EU on a particular path.

The other choice is to get out, but get out completely - a clean break, over time, with no loose threads. Once that is achieved we can then get down to negotiating on all things and with everyone, the EU and RoW, knowing where we stand.

All this hokey cokey, in-out shake it all about, or BRINO (Brexit in name only) is not doing us any good at all.

Obviously I am all for the first option and I am heartened that with every passing day there is a slim chance, due to the UK's political process, that we might get another vote on the matter.

[medsec222]

I voted out and to me that means out. A graceful exit is quite satisfactory but the present shenanigans are very distracting and are leading nowhere. My main concern is that we will end up with a Brexit and that is totally unacceptable to those who voted to leave and equally unacceptable to those who voted to remain.

[Workingman]

My main concern is that we will end up with a Brexit and that is totally unacceptable to those who voted to leave and equally unacceptable to those who voted to remain.

Meds, that is the danger, and I agree with you, If we are going to leave it has to be completely out or else we might as well not bother.