Racism Survey

[Workingman]

The picture, as far as I am concerned, is very confused.

If I see a group of swarthy men not speaking English and acting in a threatening manner and suggest that the police move them on I am being racist: in some eyes. Yet if I see a group of English acting in a threatening manner and suggest that the police move them on I am a concerned individual.

There is also the confusion between racism and religious intolerance, and that intolerance is largely down to religions seeing themselves as "the one and true" faith. If I was a betting man I would put money on this being the next big schism and, not race.

Also, if I said that all Germans were Jew hating murdering Nazis, that would be racism: pure and simple. However, if I said that I find many Germans arrogant and humourless and preferred mixing with the Dutch, that is a form of racial prejudice - choosing one over the other. Unfortunately many people see them both as racism and are quick to hand out the racist epithets.

[Suff]

Literal quote from Wikipedia WM

Racism is actions, practices or beliefs, or social or political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities.

With the accent on superior or inferior purely by inherited race. It then goes on to talk about actions as a result of that belief.

Now, so long as no word, gesture or action is taken, the belief that someone is inferior or superior does not matter. Only actions which are designed to enforce the believed superiority or inferiority should be targeted.

It's time we level set that.

What you discussed above is a racial preference, rather than a prejudice. Nothing wrong with that unless you want to make political capital from it.

[cromwell]

This is a good article in today's Daily Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... t-now.html

[Aggers]

This is a good article in today's Daily Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... t-now.html

It is a very good article, and well worth reading. It sums up the cause and effect excellently.

[shazsha]

Shaz
Being upset because races, creeds or colours get preferential treatment is not racism. Nor is it racism to blame those who court this preferential treatment and throw it in the faces of those who pay for it or suffer because of it.

Of course it isn't if we are being pedantic and using the true definition of racism. However, in discussion, it can be cumbersome to apply different terms when speaking of colour prejudice, racial intolerance, racial hatred, etc and the word "racist" does become a cover all.

Ostrich original post in this discussion used the term "racism" to address the issues of racial tension, racial integration, etc and it was this I was addressing rather than the true definition.

Regardless of what term we use, we cannot deny that the whole race issue is a hot topic and is fast becoming a very sore point for many people.

I live in an area of Glasgow where many asylum seekers were re-homed in the 90s and gradually an undercurrent of intolerance has grown and though not being supportive of it I can understand why it has happened.

The locals have seen concessions given to the AS and have gradually become more annoyed and that annoyance is expanding and turning into something uglier. I imagine this is happening all over the country and,imo, successive governments, local authorities etc seem to think that by turning a blind eye to it, it will go away.
In many cases they have caused racial problems and they appear to be loathe to address the situation.

[Workingman]

What is it, exactly, that is on the rise? Is it "racism" or racial prejudice, racial intolerance, racial preference, religious intolerance, or displeasure with government and council policies regarding immigration/immigrants?

We have been conditioned by the media, and TPTB, to believe that they are all one the same, if slightly different flavours, of "racism" so when a survey asks are you:

a. Racist
b. Slightly racist
c. Not racist

it is inevitable that many will admit to being slightly racist. If they are then included as part of the racist group it is oh so easy for the surveyors and media to present the result in the way they have. One third of Britons are racists - job done.

The way this survey has been presented has led to a national guilt-fest within the population about racism, and in doing so it has very successfully deflected criticism away from the real issues and cause - governments, past and present.

[cromwell]

I live in an area of Glasgow where many asylum seekers were re-homed in the 90s and gradually an undercurrent of intolerance has grown and though not being supportive of it I can understand why it has happened.

The locals have seen concessions given to the AS and have gradually become more annoyed and that annoyance is expanding and turning into something uglier. I imagine this is happening all over the country and,imo, successive governments, local authorities etc seem to think that by turning a blind eye to it, it will go away.
In many cases they have caused racial problems and they appear to be loathe to address the situation.

It's far easier for them to just shout "Racism!" than to admit that they have made massive mistakes.
Yes, it is happening all over the country and yes, it is causing upset and outrage.

I would not want them in my village*. Does that make me a racist? Certainly, by pc standards. But I liked things as they were. No one ever asked me if it was OK to import millions of people from all ends of the earth; and more importantly every politician out was trying to pretend that it wasn't really happening.

I didn't always used to feel like this but as you say Shazsha, attitudes are hardening.

* OK, shades of grey. If there were just a few and they were good people, no problem. A massive "comyooonity" consisting of people who were neither use nor ornament, absolutely not.

[Suff]

Shaz
Being upset because races, creeds or colours get preferential treatment is not racism. Nor is it racism to blame those who court this preferential treatment and throw it in the faces of those who pay for it or suffer because of it.

Of course it isn't if we are being pedantic and using the true definition of racism. However, in discussion, it can be cumbersome to apply different terms when speaking of colour prejudice, racial intolerance, racial hatred, etc and the word "racist" does become a cover all.

So, Shaz, in fact it has become easier just to use a "cover all" rather than use our brains to come up with coherent argument as to why something is wrong or not.

This is censorship and debate killing by using the "race" word. If you kill debate, then you stop people from talking about issues and you stop it from coming out into the open and being dealt with. This is exactly why the people around you are becoming increasingly belligerent and hardened to immigrants. Not because of the immigration or because of the handouts and inequality.

It is because they cannot even talk about it without being branded as a RACIST by some person who is all about PC and nothing to do with common sense.

This cannot go on.

Let me give you a fabricated example of where this debate can help.

Let us say we go back 30 years and take our "racist" attitudes with us. In a village we find an old lady who won't use the village shop because it's owned and run by a Black (Afro/British) family. If you were to go an ask her why, she'd tell you that they're dirty and she won't buy from a dirty shop. Even though she doesn't actually know them and has never been in the shop since they took over.

Racist you decry Racist, Racist RACIST.

OK so let's stop chanting and screaming for a while and go back to the old lady and actually talk to her. Let's ask her why she feels that way and what her problem is.

When talking to the old lady we find that in the 1930's she was a Nurse with several different Missions in Africa. Everywhere she went she saw disease, poor hygienee practises which led to disease, food practises which cases illnesses, water which was barely fit to drink which cause huge deaths. Then we find she came home, married, took up a career and is now a widower. She's never been back to Africa and has never really had any contact with any British Blacks of African descent.

So we talk to her and find out that she has nothing against Black people, in fact had many good friends in families there even if she would not touch any offered food. We find that she still writes to some of those families and has photographs. She's shocked to find that people think she's against the family because she thinks that people having a different skin colour makes them inferior.

When talking to her we manage to let her know that this family is third generation Black English. The children are, when they leave home, going to good universities. That the family has a tradition in Engineering, Law and Health but this branch of it chose to get out of the rat race of the big city and have a small shop in a village instead, to try and get away and some peace.

Also we realise that she knows, having been a nurse, that there are plenty of white families which she would not want serving in shops and that she does not frequent other shops because of the personal hygiene of some of the staff.

Eventually we find that once she's learned that these are British Black's with a good standard, she becomes happy to use the shop.

Wind forward 30 years.

The debate would never happen. The woman would be ostracised. Nobody would ever find out what it was all about, they would be too busy screaming RACIST at the top of their lungs.

Such is the "convenience" of smearing everyone with one tag rather than trying to debate an issue.

Labelling kills debate.

Labelling "racist" causes racism.

We should be extremely careful what we wish for. Supposedly the UK is a democracy. That means that if 51% of the voting population decided that all ethnic minorities had to leave the UK and either go back to their country of birth or emigrate to a country which would have them; then they would have to leave. Whether the other 49% were screaming their lungs out that this was wrong or not.

Let us hope that our "democracy" is never so challenged because of Politically Correct labelling on "racism".

Because, in my opinion, the whole Race debate in the UK has descended to the level of bigotry. Not by those who are branded as racists; but by those who do the branding.

[Workingman]

I have been monitoring a few comments pages since this survey was published, and at one level it is depressing the number of people playing the "racist" joker without offering any suggestions or alternatives. On the other hand, it is refreshing to hear others telling the shouters of "racist" and "bigot" that their insults work no more. They then go on to offer explanations as to why they feel the way they do, but very few ot the shouters take tham on. This, to me, is a good thing.

[shazsha]

So, Shaz, in fact it has become easier just to use a "cover all" rather than use our brains to come up with coherent argument as to why something is wrong or not.

As I previously said this discussion is entitled "Racism Survey" and in it people have discussed racial tensions, colour prejudice, etc so, yes, it would appear that the word racist is being used as a cover all. However I dont think that people are refusing to use their brains; rather they are addressing the whole race issue rather than worrying about the correct definition of a word.

This is censorship and debate killing by using the "race" word.

I disagree. I see people on this debate putting forward their views on why the issue is becoming bigger, possible causes, etc and I truly don't believe any of us feel censored and the debate is continuing.

If you kill debate, then you stop people from talking about issues and you stop it from coming out into the open and being dealt with.

The use of the word "racism" hasn't killed the debate here at all and people are talking about about the issue.
What I do think stifles debate is when people know exactly what people are saying but become pedantic. I am convinced everyone who has taken part in this discussion, or who has read it, knows the true definition of the word "racist" but are willing to debate the whole race issue in the UK under that banner.

This is exactly why the people around you are becoming increasingly belligerent and hardened to immigrants. Not because of the immigration or because of the handouts and inequality.

No it isn't. Those who have become belligerent are very vocal on the subject and certainly don't hold back on voicing their thoughts. They aren't hardened to immigrants because they can't discuss issues surrounding them-they are hardened to immigrants, in part, because they believe(rightly or wrongly) they are getting unfair advantages and preferential treatment.

It is because they cannot even talk about it without being branded as a RACIST by some person who is all about PC and nothing to do with common sense.

I'm sorry but that just isn't true. The race issue is big and people do discuss it. If people were so afraid to say anything for fear of being branded as "racist" then we wouldn't be having this discussion now. The media wouldn't be running surveys on it, political parties wouldn't be taking the issue seriously and we'd all be pretending things are just fine and dandy.

Labelling kills debate.

Only if you let it. Many a time on Femail I was branded as racist and given some choice insults along with it. However it didn't stop me giving my POV because I am comfortable with my beliefs. I also remember this label being applied to a few others on here, back in the femail days, and yet we're still debating the issue and, I'm guessing, they are happy to defend those beliefs and certainly don't appear to be afraid of a label.

Racism, and the whole race issue, has many causes and to become bogged down in semantics doesn't really help discussion at all.

I should probably have expanded more on certain points in this post but it's late, i'm tired and I have a busy weekend ahead so I'm off to bed for some zzzz time now.