Cameron's speech.

[Suff]

well put

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/5711bc88 ... z2It0eTE4Z

It's open, you don't need an account.

[Workingman]

European Superstate, Federalism, The U.S.E... never talked about, never discussed, never admitted to: utter rubbish!

Sovereignty, or the loss of it because of the European Superstate, Federalism or the USE, has been the biggest talking point of the Europhobes since the year dot. It is always brought up no matter how tenuous the link. No opportunity is ever missed to mention this particular bogeyman. Monetary and political union(s) are the two most talked about subjects in the whole EU debate.

[cromwell]

They may be mentioned, WM, but never explained.
We have a public service broadcaster, the BBC, part of whose mandate is to "educate and inform".
We have been a member of the EU for 40 years.
How many people in this country know who Jean Monnet was? What were his origins, what were his views - just who was he?
I'll bet, less than 1%.
How many people in this country can describe the structure of the EU - Council of Ministers, etc? About the same percentage.
The Beeb has started to mention "the European Project" - but has never explained what that project might be - why?
The people of this country are massively ignorant of the EU for the simple reason that they have been kept massively in the dark about it.
And that is, imo, because if the reality of the EU was explained, they would not like what they heard - so they aren't told.

[Workingman]

How many people who were born here, have lived here, and who will die here can give a detailed account of the British Constitution? Magna Carta could be a new ride at Alton Towers for many of them.

Discussion of The Project has taken many forms over the years.

EMS/ERM were preparatory events for economic and monetary union. We were "in", we were "out" we were slaughtered on the money markets. The was talk of loss of Sovereignty - seen as necessary for a united Europe.

There was Maastricht, the creation of the Euro and the European Union. We wanted opt-outs to preserve our Sovereignty because we wanted our own influence and not to be part of a joined up set of institutions. We had different views and we wanted to keep them.

There was the introduction of the Euro. Well, we were having none of that. Loss of the Pound Sterling would lead to loss of British Sovereignty. It would lead to banking union and that would lead to political union.

And I hate to defend the BBC but.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11710563
The Q&A section has been there for years.

[cromwell]

Well, the sovereignty argument, used by politicians, always baffles me.
The EU as an organisation has always had the long term intention of replacing the nation states of Europe with a federalised (regionalised?) Supranational state - itself.
So if you join, that's what you are agreeing to - loss of sovereignty. Long term, total loss of sovereignty.
So why join and then start kicking off, saying you are "Defending the UK's sovereignity" from within? Ridiculous.

[Workingman]

EMS came in about 1978/9, only a few years after our referendum to stay in/get out.

But it didn't just pop up out of nothing, it will have been in the planning for some years before it existence. British politicians will have been at those discussions. EMS was the first step on the path to closer and closer integration - plain as day, loss of Sovereignty. It was not hidden from us or from our politicians.

If our we did not like the way things were going that was the time for us to pull out or, alternatively, get stuck in and create another path. We did neither, that is why we are where we are today.

I have never forgiven politicians, of all parties, for that missed opportunity.

[pederito1]

That IN or OUT Referendum...."YES ___ if you want to stay IN the EU. NO___ if you dont want to get OUT of the EU You can fool all the people all the time,it is just a question of trying hard. Are we perhaps overlooking Great Uncle Lucifer in all this? He seems to be drumming up the courage to put up two fingers to Frau Murky and Brussels but can he do the same to them? He keeps hopping over there to get their blessing on most things he does.