Lot of news about a Tesla that smashed into a tree

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Re: Lot of news about a Tesla that smashed into a tree

Postby Suff » 22 Apr 2021, 17:25

Workingman wrote:Many thousands of words cannot alter the fact that self-drive vehicles are a solution to a problem that does not exist, and an expensive one at that.

Being blind in one eye I do not have true 3D, but I can get from A to B safely, and in my own city and the neighbouring ones I do not need SATNAV. I can consult a map, and then only for the last mile or so, sometimes. I can also deviate from my route at any time on a whim - no reprogramming necessary.

The tech is very clever, no doubt about that, but for me and millions of other drivers a major point of having the car is to drive it. It is an enjoyable experience. In fact I have yet to meet a driver who likes being a passenger, especially if sat in the front.


I've met a few who prefer to be a passenger WM. They tend to drive less than 5,000 miles a year, only in the city and are scared of driving over 60mph.

For some of the driving I've done not having cruise screwed my right knee and right ankle. With Cruise I still suffered. I'd love a vehicle that can drive me for 19 to 20 hours and then I can get out and still be fresh, be able to get up early in the morning and continue the journey without being totally shattered.

I, also, use satnav relatively minimally. In fact I have most use for it when in cities where it works the least. I have driven more than 1,000 miles with minimal input from satnav and tend to use it as a way marker for distance when driving over 500 miles. I often miss signs because I'm not paying attention and over journeys of that distance you need to know when to break and where to break.

The main driver I see for self drive vehicles is to remove the reliance on vehicles for people who really only have a need irregularly. Literally tens of millions of vehicles are owned for the express purpose of shopping once a week. Mainly because of the cost and unreliability of taxi's when shopping. People want the flexibility of boot space, a vehicle which is simply there, something they can be in control of rather than being at the mercy of a driver who wants to do things their way. Autonomous hired vehicles, to the point of leaving it in the shop car park till you get back, at low cost, is a real possibility.

But if we don't use the opportunity of the mass market to fund the development we won't see it for another 25 years and, personally, I don't want to see hundreds of millions of vehicles produced, driven a few thousand miles and crushed 10 years later, all because there is no other choice.

Telsa managed 3 billion miles on Autopilot at the beginning of 2020. With over 1m autopilot capable vehicles this will increase even faster. It is the real world mass market opportunity to get this AI off the ground and into vehicles. Once there, a whole new world of opportunity opens up and things we never thought of before change our lives forever. You and I both used the Internet before web 2.0 and the rise of Amazon and Google and the amazing world we have today. Almost nobody saw what it would become, or it would be regulated to death by now.

When seeing AI driving I look forward, not down at the floor or back over my shoulder. Which is why I think it is vitally important to make sure that reporting of AI related incidents is factual, responsible and not speculative to try and drive fear and sell news. During my trawling through the accident stats something was very clear. Deaths for that 3bn miles are at least 6 times higher for human drivers. But the number of accidents are around 500 times more prevalent. Once the issues with detection clash are ironed out, that number of deaths will be halved.

But it is really important to note that at least half of the incidents in which accidents happened, which were the same as the one's which caused deaths, the humans did not react either. Which means some of these deaths would have happened anyway AI driver or not. But the press is not interested in that. They just want you scared so you will buy their news.
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Re: Lot of news about a Tesla that smashed into a tree

Postby Suff » 22 Apr 2021, 18:32

cromwell wrote:But it's the lack of choice that I have. If I want x, then I must have a,d,c,d and e as well.


Tesla's don't have too many knobs and stuff, it has been moved to the central screen. However much of what has been moved there is set and forget, some is voice controlled and it is mostly easy to get at. VW's EV, on the other hand, is a total nightmare (according to all reports), stuck in an interface which crashes half the time and works like a sloth on downers the other half.

Another interesting point with Tesla is that you can turn off almost all of the AI related driving aids and just drive the car. You try that with a Peugeot. My Uncle rants constantly about not being able to switch off lane keeping or blind spot warnings.

We are moving forwards, just like mobile phones which no longer have buttons, we're getting used to it. Same with cars which are just catching up.

One of the reasons you get bad press about EV's and why dealers (not Tesla), don't want to sell you one, is that EV's require virtually no servicing at all. One Nissan Leaf taxi in Spain managed 750,000 km with no servicing and one wheel bearing changed. Tesla insists that you take an annual review of the vehicle which costs around £500, but it is only for warranty continuation. Tesla warranty is 4 years battery pack and 8 years drivetrain and other components and 100,000 miles.

It is going to be interesting times and the people who will be buying these vehicles will be touch screen aware not inclined to want buttons and sliders.

One thing Tesla does have is that the roller on the cruise speed setting rolls the speed up and down. Something I've been looking for in standard vehicles for decades. They drive the industry, their mission statement is to drive transition to clean power and clean transport. As such they set themselves up as the company to beat. Hence they provide vehicles, the power to charge them, the solutions to charge them in your home, the ability to generate your own power, store it at home and fill your vehicle up at home, all without touching the grid and also they do grid scale power solutions and have software to match. In fact one of their latest products is software, autobidder where you can sell your home generated electricity to the highest bidder, rather than to the grid or the government.

The only way the incumbents can hope to keep up is to slow Tesla down. Hence the constant "speculation" that Tesla did something hugely wrong and is selling millions of vehicles that will kill you. In reality you have more chance of getting a Ford which was not recalled that goes into runaway throttle and kills you than you are to die from an Autopilot accident. Ditto faulty tyres on an old vehicle that explode which were never recalled and a whole range of other unfixed critical faults with other cars. Including other self igniting EV's when you plug them into the charger, or just look at them the wrong way... :o :o :o

The first reported Hyundai Kona fire took place in Hyundai’s Ulsan production plant in May 2018.[111]

A second fire also occurred on the Ulsan production line on August 16, 2018 [112]
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Re: Lot of news about a Tesla that smashed into a tree

Postby Workingman » 23 Apr 2021, 07:11

We'll just gloss over the fact that the $multi billion Tesla-Tonka system can be 'tricked' for a few bob, as Consumer Reports engineers did, it's no problem.

The world desperately needs this carp. We humans are useless at getting from A to B, we need help, How we got from Africa to colonise the whole planet without SATNAV and GPS is an unsolvable mystery.
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Re: Lot of news about a Tesla that smashed into a tree

Postby Suff » 23 Apr 2021, 16:50

You said it with your own words. Tricked. These people had to go far out of their way to override reasonable security systems designed to stop people from using the driver assist systems incorrectly by mistake.

Deliberate suicide is not the fault of Tesla!

As for needing this stuff? Well we don't really need plane or trains or many roads. We don't need mobile phones, TV's, cinema's bars, pubs, we don't need computers or tablets.

There are an awful lot of things we don't really need in this world and a vehicle that we can use without having to get a driving license is way up the list from many of them. As anyone who has tried to get a bus to the tube station at 08:30 in Wembley can tell you. Let alone actually trying to get on a tube in Wembley at the same time.
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Re: Lot of news about a Tesla that smashed into a tree

Postby Workingman » 23 Apr 2021, 17:49

The phrase used was "easily tricked" and also the car "not only failed to make sure the driver was paying attention, but couldn't tell if there was a driver there at all".

I would like to see someone who is not a stunt driver drive one of these useless "normal" cars hands-free from the passenger seat and at a speed fast enough for it to veer off the road, hit a tree, and burst into flames.

One for the Top Gear team to have a go at.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Lot of news about a Tesla that smashed into a tree

Postby Suff » 23 Apr 2021, 18:28

Workingman wrote:One for the Top Gear team to have a go at.... :lol: :lol: :lol:


Pity Hammond has left then.. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Lot of news about a Tesla that smashed into a tree

Postby Suff » 11 May 2021, 09:19

The NTSB in the US has delivered an initial assessment.

The crash trip originated at the owner’s residence near the end of a cul-de-sac. Footage from the owner’s home security camera shows the owner entering the car’s driver’s seat and the passenger entering the front passenger seat. The car leaves and travels about 550 feet before departing the road on a curve, driving over the curb, and hitting a drainage culvert, a raised manhole, and a tree.


Tesla’s advanced driver assistance system. Using Autopilot requires both the Traffic Aware Cruise Control and the Autosteer systems to be engaged.2 NTSB tests of an exemplar car at the crash location showed that Traffic Aware Cruise Control could be engaged but that Autosteer was not available on that part of the road.


https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... report.pdf

I will, vainly, await the retractions.

Most of the scare stories revolved around AP remaining engaged when transiting from a lined road to a non land road.

550 feet. Not, as was trumpeted, because the system could not cope, but because the system was not engaged. Hundreds of millions of cars have traffic aware cruise control it is always the responsibility of the driver to be in control when it is on.

The sad part is that if AP had been engaged it would have limited the speed and brought the vehicle to a halt.

Exactly the opposite of the claims.

Hopefully they will be able to recover data from the restraint control module which will give a better insight.
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