The 19th of July is on.

[cromwell]

I have been saying for ages that they will not let vaccine passports go unless they are forced to.

This is like something out of Communist China or North Korea. And all done under the banner of the "NHS app", the NHS being unquestionably wonderful, as our media remind us every day.

Well, we will see what happens. But many people even usually compliant ones, are very unhappy about this.

[Suff]

This is like something out of Communist China or North Korea.

Actually France has just mandated this because France has the highest levels of vaccine resistance for the population in the EU. I wonder why with politicians rubbishing the vaccines at every turn, creating scares, putting the people off.

Now let's level set this.

When I open the EU app this is the screen I see.



Why is it deactivated? Because both bluetooth and location are off. Yes it switches them on when you install it, but you are then in control of it thereafter.

In my Deactivated app I open the wallet and you see the following, with my name and dob redacted.



What, exactly, is the problem. I have the google tools disabled and it requires them. My bluetooth is off and location is off. If anyone really wanted to track me they could by tracking cell masts, fairly easily. It would require exactly the same authorisation that the covid app would require to furnish the info. I don't go around all day in airline mode.

[Workingman]

OK, I get that, but are you for or against Covid certification status - by whichever means - we can have a paper version not just the app?

And if so, where? Nightclubs, clubs, raves, festivals, football etc, airports, train stations, museums, ballet, opera, pubs, Primark, supermarkets....

Are they for all of us all the time or just the chosen few who the government desperately want to jab?

[cromwell]

Plus, how long are these covid passports going to last? Is this the way that we are going to live, forever? If not why are we setting up a massive system for a temporary problem?

Writing in the Daily Telegraph today Shirelle Jacobs puts it very succinctly. "Citizens will be compelled to give up potentially vast quantities of personal data as a basic condition for access to everyday services. It is a dark turning point for the west....the only other country experimenting in this uncharted territory is authoritarian China, with its notorious social credit system, which bars citizens from basic goods like train tickets and loans".

That is where all this is leading. I would suggest anyone who thinks this is going to be limited to youngsters and nightclubs is naive at best.

And you know the worst thing? Only the LibDems have spoken against it. The media are entirely supine - they haven't asked one question about Covid passports, even the blatantly obvious ones. The Labour party is similarly silent, and I think you can take their silence as agreement.

The vaccine pass is an instrument of control, as Ms Jacobs points out; and our politicians are wanting very urgently to control us.

[Workingman]

Not sure about the "give up potentially vast quantities of personal data". Apart from the jab info I already carry most of the necessary on the likes of my NHS card, driving licence, Int'l passport and so on - name, address etc. That does not particularly worry me.

What does worry me is when, where and at what times I will need to prove myself.

If it is in many places then there is real potential for my movements to be tracked on a daily basis. That can already happen via a phone, but as mine is often off or left on the desk I do not worry much. However, needing C-c-s proof, even with a paper certificate, opens me up again. The government will not easily let that go, imo.

The Stasi would have loved such a system.

[Suff]

OK, I get that, but are you for or against Covid certification status - by whichever means - we can have a paper version not just the app?

I am much more for covid certification than I am for masks. Masks have plenty of "studies" but the effect is way under 50% in helping to prevent infection. In fact it requires masks and hard lockdown to stop a virus wave.

Vaccinations are somewhere around 80% efficient at blocking transmission (protection and transmission control combined) and can be over 90% depending on the vaccine. After all if you don't catch it or do not become infectious, then you can't transmit it.

If people won't take the vaccine "just because" then I'm for the certification. It means that the "just because" crowd don't get to go to the places they want, can't travel internationally and don't get to interact with the rest of us as they please. If they won't take a small step to protect everyone else, then why should the rest of us just take it on the chin.

This is the "only" reason I am for certification. Simply put, either people vaccinate to protect everyone else or they don't unlock fully. That's my take. And, yes, I would take it to busses, trains, flights, everywhere. If they can bloody well make us wear a mask they can damned well ensure that those who share the transport with us have taken every step to ensure our health in the middle of a global pandemic.

Yes, I understand that also means people who come into the country can't travel, visit anything, go to bars, clubs, etc. It is, after all a global pandemic and nearly 200m people have been recorded as infected to date.

There is a simple point though. Once the pandemic is determined to be over by WHO, then these requirements end. It will probably be 2025, but I'll take that on the chin to make the "just because" take the vaccine or restrict their lives. After all they have taken a conscious decision to threaten our lives because the impact to them is minimal or non existent.

As for paper?? It's too easy to fake. Even this app can be faked if people are determined enough. The problem is that the scanners need to be hooked into the central database so they can validate that the QR code is not being used by 10,000 people in 10,000 different places, at the same time. I've seen no infrastructure which will validate these certificates which can be rolled out to public places. Until that happens the whole thing is moot because anyone determined enough could fake it.

I'm pretty private about my data. If you put my name into google you will not find me easily. In fact I have to give my email address to people to find me in LinkedIn. I am visible if you know my email address because I'm a company director and that info is public. Beyond that? You don't find me. I don't do farcebook, I have two twitter accounts but they are linked to single use mail accounts which do not have my personal details attached. Whatsapp and Signal too, but you need my phone number to find anything about me and my usual is generic "blah" information which has no relevance.

So, as you can imagine, if I want these certificates it has to be pretty momentous as I HATE the government knowing anything about me.

[Workingman]

So how exactly am I "unlocked fully" if I need a pass to go, as you say, everywhere.

That's not being unlocked, that is total control of us, even though I and millions of others have done the right thing by us all by being vaccinated.

Those who have not been vaccinated are known to the system. Send teams round to pin them down and give them a choice - jab or you get a tattoo of a syringe with a big red X over it in the middle of your forehead.

[Workingman]

Or we could do away with all passes. Those of us who are double jabbed are well protected, those of us who also wear masks, wash hands and SD even more so; those anti-vaxers and anti-maskers have no protection. Let them mingle and mix and let Darwin thin them out. Of course admissions and deaths will increase, but there's an opportunity.

Imagine if the government's dashboard read:

Admissions = 8,237 of those 6,981 chose to have no jab

Deaths = 2,463 of those 2,397 chose to have no jab

My, how that would focus minds.

[cromwell]

If both major political parties are in favour of vaccine passports then I guess they are going to happen, for good or evil.
When the World Health Organisation declares the pandemic over though, there is no longer any justification for having vaccine passports.
What then?

[Suff]

WM, you conflate lockdown with certification.

In lockdown you cannot go, end of story.

In certification you can go but you must get both vaccines and certify that you have them.

Having to certify is still control, yes, but only controlling those who will not certify.

If you have had both vaccines and refuse to certify, you are locking yourself down.

I would love you to explain just how the government could control those who won't vaccinate without certifying those who do.

I work in IT security now. A piece of paper is not certification unless the situation can be centrally verified and the identity of the holder matched to the valid certification.

Having a piece of paper, in that scenario, does not remove you from tracking as the process of certification will do that.

In fact, the NHS app, deactivated for tracking, with a passport cert and physical id such as a driving license is far less tracking than paper which must be checked centrally.

Think it through.