Apprenticeships.

[Workingman]

I have just been reading a few reports that the take-up of modern apprenticeships has fallen of a cliff - only a third compared to last year. They all contain stories from current and former apprentices about their experiences and why they joined up or not, stayed on or gave up. Enlightening they certainly are.

Apparently the courses being looked at are ones which last two year and the pay is set at a minimum of £3.50 an hour. They appear to be a mish-mash of totally classroom based, totally work (on the job) based or a bit of both. At the end of the course these apprentices get a Level 2 qualification - I am assuming an NVQ. As the apprentices have to complete Level 1 before moving on that implies that they got mostly GCSEs at Grades D-G. NVQ Level 2 equals GCSE A*-C. There are other apprenticeship types starting or going all the way up to Level 6, but the entry requirements also go up - some need A levels or NVQ4.

Most of the reasons for not joining up or packing in were about pay - too low, study - too much, and work responsibilities - menial jobs only.

The mind boggles at what they expect and what apprenticeships have become. Most of the Level 2 ones look like nothing more than an entry into unskilled or semi-skilled work, a way to get children out of bed and into a daily routine, and of course they are not on job seeker benefits.

[Suff]

Sounds like just a way of avoiding the National Minimal Wage to me.

Apprenticeships were always for a trade, menial jobs were on the job training.

Do a dumbed down apprenticeship to warehouse youth unemployment....

Doesn't sound good to me.

[TheOstrich]

To me, one of the main points about undertaking an apprenticeship is to see if you have got a talent for a chosen career. When I left school, OK late 1960's , I had a choice of university or an apprenticeship in accountancy - known in old-fashioned terms as becoming an articled clerk. Pay was abysmal (about £350 a year from memory), initially jobs were menial (post clerk, telephone answering, and low level double-entry bookkeeping) and all study for examinations was in my own time, by correspondence course, after a 37.5 hour week's work. But it gave me an entry into the profession, gave me grounding in the basics of the job, and gave me a bit of cash to pay my board at home. And yes, I did manage to make a career out of it.

I think there are some teenagers today who expect it all on a plate from the start, seduced by society's general ethos of dosh and greed. And I suspect many of the apprenticeships hurriedly raised up by the Government are nothing more than tired old, recycled, under-supervised study courses. I am sure there are some good apprenticeship schemes out there - I'm thinking of the JCB Engineering Academy at Rocester, East Staffs, or Dyson down here in Malmesbury / Hulavington, Wilts - but I suspect most are just a scam run in cahoots with various firms for cheap labour. I know that various Colleges in the West Midlands who tried to offer them found they didn't do the business and closed their courses down. It's a real shame, I had hoped that apprenticeships, per se, might have taken off, and benefitted a lot of young folk .....

[Workingman]

Doesn't sound good to me.

Nor me.

Ossie, I started out in printing and did four and a half days shadowing skilled people in the various departments, then did half a day and two four hour evenings at college per week leading to an OND. That, to me, is an apprenticeship, an indentured apprenticeship.

And as you say there are some good apprenticeships to be had. From my main line of work BAe, Rolls Royce and British Airways spring to mind, it is just a shame that more companies cannot see the benefit of training up their own staff.

[AliasAggers]

I started with an apprenticeship in Engineering, with three evenings a week at Night School for two years.
followed by a four-year day-release course in Mechanical Engineering at a Technical Colledge, culminating
in a Higher National Certificate in Mechanical Engineering, which we were then advised is equivalent to an
Engineering Degree.

That was only the start of my progress through various advanced stages of factory Management.

To me, this system is far better than Blair's idea of sending so many children to University.

[JoM]

Aggers, that's pretty much what John did in the 80s. He started off on an engineering apprenticeship, working in a local engineering factory. He did day release and then night classes (until around 1994) and then got a job as a draughtsman which is what he's still doing now, although he's now the department manager.

Joe's now doing a full time engineering course at college (if you can call two full days and a half day full time). He passed level 2 last year so is now doing level 3. He did think of an apprenticeship but for what he wanted to do, for an apprenticeship at a good company, he needed exceptional GCSE results or even A levels as the competition is high for very few places. His aim is to pass his driving test which will then allow him to apply for jobs or apprenticeships in a wider area. JCB at Rocester is fairly easy to get to by car but an impossibility by public transport, same with JLR's new plant just outside of Wolverhampton.

[Workingman]

Aggers, I am thinking much the same thing. Unfortunately the "50% must go to University" ideology goes hand in hand with the decline in real apprenticeships. At a stroke the provision of the country's skills base was shifted from business to the State via universities. It is such a shame that many of the degrees now being taken are of little use to the individual or business.

Joe's now doing a full time engineering course at college (if you can call two full days and a half day full time). He passed level 2 last year so is now doing level 3. He did think of an apprenticeship but for what he wanted to do, for an apprenticeship at a good company, he needed exceptional GCSE results or even A levels as the competition is high for very few places.

Jo, that is also what I was reading and what was being said. What many would call 'proper' apprenticeships lasting a few years with a mix of college and OTJ were like hen's teeth to find and apply for. My very best wishes to Joe in his endeavours.

The 'apprenticeships' with poor take-up and high drop-out rates all look like little more than cheap labour in largely unskilled or semi-skilled occupations.

[TheOstrich]

....... same with JLR's new plant just outside of Wolverhampton.

Yes, good luck to Joe!
Just wondering .... is JLR on that "i54 Business Park" complex - haven't you got a direct bus there from Cannock (the 154, from memory)?

[JoM]

....... same with JLR's new plant just outside of Wolverhampton.

Yes, good luck to Joe!
Just wondering .... is JLR on that "i54 Business Park" complex - haven't you got a direct bus there from Cannock (the 154, from memory)?

There is, but he doesn't want to be dependent on buses as services around here are frequently withdrawn. The bus between Cannock and Stafford College is one that's recently suffered, it was a term time only service which ran at 8am and then a return service ran at around 4.30. Now there's just the one bus which gets them to college on time and even though there's a bus stop 2 minutes away from us, he has to go into Cannock to be sure of getting on it. Timing is terrible as there are now more students traveling to Stafford since Cannock College closed earlier this year.

Anyway, back on subject. I see apprenticeships, or at least a lot of them, as being a modern version of the YTS. Take on a school leaver as a dogsbody and when the time is up wave them goodbye and take on another.

[Ally]

....... same with JLR's new plant just outside of Wolverhampton.

Yes, good luck to Joe!
Just wondering .... is JLR on that "i54 Business Park" complex - haven't you got a direct bus there from Cannock (the 154, from memory)?

There is, but he doesn't want to be dependent on buses as services around here are frequently withdrawn. The bus between Cannock and Stafford College is one that's recently suffered, it was a term time only service which ran at 8am and then a return service ran at around 4.30. Now there's just the one bus which gets them to college on time and even though there's a bus stop 2 minutes away from us, he has to go into Cannock to be sure of getting on it. Timing is terrible as there are now more students traveling to Stafford since Cannock College closed earlier this year.

Anyway, back on subject. I see apprenticeships, or at least a lot of them, as being a modern version of the YTS. Take on a school leaver as a dogsbody and when the time is up wave them goodbye and take on another.

Amazingly Jo, the night I came back from London and was waiting in Jackie's local pub for Don, this is exactly the conversation I heard between two dads!

Both their sons had had 'apprenticeships' and were immediately let go when finished.

Both dads were really upset for their sons as a: the boys had worked hard and b: had really enjoyed it.