Vocal Voices

Goes the old saying.

Over the months of Brexit, we have been hearing about how Security CANNOT BE REDUCED by Brexit. It cannot be put on the table, it cannot be negotiated, nobody can hold security over the heads of anyone else as this is Dangerous...

Verhofstadt

The European parliament’s Brexit coordinator, Guy Verhofstadt, responded that MEPs would not accept any attempt by the UK to use its strength in the military and intelligence fields as a bargaining chip

Barnier

By exercising this individual and collective responsibility, we give ourselves every opportunity to strike an ambitious partnership deal with the United Kingdom, not only in terms of trade but also for our security and defence, cooperation between us on police and judicial matters

Juncker

“Since we are not at war with the UK and we do not want to take revenge on the UK, for what the British people have decided, this security alliance, the security bridge between the UK and the EU will be maintained. We still need it,” he said.

However, he insisted that what Britain had to offer on defence and security must not be conflated with “other questions relating to Brexit”.

Juncker

A security partnership between the EU the U.K. after Brexit is “essential,” European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said.

“The fight against terror does not allow us not to work closer together,”

Barnier this week.

I've taken bits out it is quite long. But the gist of it is this...

1) First: effective exchange of information

<snip>

Finally, we are open to exchanging information on passengers contained in Passenger Name Records with the UK authorities.

But let's be clear: based on the UK's positions, our cooperation will need to be organised differently. It will rely on effective and reciprocal exchanges, but not on access to EU-only or Schengen-only databases.

2) Second pillar: operational cooperation between law enforcement authorities.

<Snip>

As a consequence of the UK's decision to leave the Union, UK representatives will no longer take part in meetings of Europol and Eurojust management boards.

3) This brings me to our third pillar: judicial cooperation in criminal matters.

<snip>

Yet today we know that the UK is not ready to accept the free movement of people, the jurisdiction of the Court and the Charter of Fundamental Rights – for the Charter, this was confirmed last week by the House of Commons.

This means that the UK cannot take part in the European Arrest Warrant.

4) Our fourth pillar concerns measures against money laundering and terrorist financing.

<Snip>

They want to maintain all the benefits of the current relationship, while leaving the EU regulatory, supervision, and application framework. And they try to blame us for the consequences of their choice.

Once again, we will not be drawn into this blame game. It would mean wasting time we don't have.

<Snip>

It is not by chance that I speak about security here, at the EU Fundamental Rights Agency in Vienna. With its expertise and analyses, the Agency contributes to putting fundamental rights at the centre of what we are as a Union.

That is not going to change after Brexit.

This means two things.

1) First, our future relationship with the UK will need to be based on strong safeguards on fundamental rights, data protection and dispute settlement.

<Snip>

We want an ambitious partnership with the UK. The content of this partnership depends on the UK's readiness to ensure appropriate safeguards.

You cannot expect Member States to continue cooperating with the UK without these safeguards. These are not bureaucratic issues; this is about the lives and liberties of our citizens.

2) My second point is that the EU at 27 will continue to strengthen its area of justice, freedom and security.


Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah
<Snip>

And it is in this spirit that, while respecting its decision to leave the EU, we will propose a strong partnership with the UK, a country with whom we have a common history, a common geography and common challenges.

Let me translate all that BS into one single clear message.

"We demand that you continue to give us your security information without using it to negotiate with us. We will use that security information to make the EU a stronger and safer place. However we will deny you the outcome of the combined results of that data because you dared to leave the EU."

This is a double demand. A demand that we give them something for nothing and a second demand that we get nothing for something.

And you want to negotiate with these people? The reality is that the UK is a source of far greater than 50% of the security information available to the EU (whether UK or other UK alliance sourced). The UK is the second largest guarantor of the physical security of the EU (NATO) and the UK has a relationship with the US, on security, which means the partnership delivers the very largest proportion of security information that the EU relies upon. Note that the UK receives shared security information from the US which is banned from release to the EU; because some states in the EU are "not reliable".

What is written above is the very essence of the whole reason people in the UK voted for Brexit and it is the very reason why the UK will never get a fair, or even half fair, deal from the EU. Not unless the UK starts putting ALL its cards on the table and starts saying "F.U until you start making sense". The only possible viable response to this drivel is that ALL UK security information flows to the EU will cease In April 2019 until the EU negotiate a mutually acceptable reciprocation scheme!

I may be annoyed but I am not, in the very least little bit, even the slightest surprised. I will, also, not be surprised if May does not roll over on this one.

What the EU may not be factoring in is that from April 2019 it will no longer have a true say on what subsequent governments do with the Security relationship. Which is what I'm relying on.

Suff wrote:What is written above is the very essence of the whole reason people in the UK voted for Brexit

Tosh!

Leavers voted for Brexit because of immigration, immigration, FoM, urban myths and lies on the side of a big bus. The above never entered their minds. They were "lead down the garden path" and had their emotions played on. Who said so? Aaron Banks the funder of Leave in his recent book. Most Levers did not (don't) even know that the EU has an Agency for Fundamental Rights nor that is has any "pillars", rules or achievements.

Another myth.

Not really. My belief is that what tipped the waverers over the edge was the way Cameron was treated by the EU; just before the referendum.

And that, without a shadow of a doubt, fits, exactly, the scenario above.

Immigration not the issue, eh?

Go read the bilious comments by Leavers on the BBC, DM and Telegraph now that the government has published its simple questions for EU citizens wanting to remain in the UK. They will be asked to prove their ID, whether they have criminal convictions and whether they live in the UK; and the Leavers are not happy bunnies, they wanted more, a lot more.

Well now, if you think the Brexit decision was ONLY driven by Immigration and that the EU was firmly aligned against the UK on their "policy" on Immigration and their unity. You just need to read the sheer chaos going on in the EU27 right now.

Merkel is threatened so she barks and the EU jumps to give her a meeting of leaders. We had to beg remember! However it is not going all Merkel's way. Italy is listening to Merkel's attempts to lock refugees into Italy and Greece and giving it the finger very firmly.

You only have to go back 3 or 4 years and re-read the strident rhetoric about how the UK was a heartless regime who refused to take all those "poor refugees" who were escaping war and terror.

Now we hear that, in a desperate attempt to not even bring the illegals into the EU, they are going to pay African countries to stick them in camps (Gulags? ), so that we have a certified place to repatriate them to. Even though the Libyans are furious that we won't return illegals to Libya so that they can deal with them. They are mad as hell that their country has become a railroad for illegals who are picked up by EU ships and transported hundreds of miles to the EU when they could be returned a few tens of miles to the African coast.

If it were not for the fact that it is playing out right on the front pages of the world press, you would think it is some kind of dark satire.

Brexit was NOT all about immigration. It was about a combination of jobs, money, illegals, attitude, legal immigration and sheer utter contempt. Yes if you bring one of those to the fore, then the Brexiteers will rip it to shreds. However most Brexiteers are looking at many more things than simply immigration. It is about Sovereignty, pride, unaccountable governments, a hell of a lot of money and high handed attitudes.

Now the people of the EU states have learned that if you just get behind the rebels and PUSH, you can actually overturn the influence of the EU and get something back in return. Rather than just keeping on accepting the same old excuses.

Brexit was not the beginning of this road nor will it be the end.. However, in true British form, we have very heavily influenced the attitudes and expectations of those who are not happy.

When the FT reports multiple ministers from multiple countries having really serious worries about Schengen, you know there is a cancer at the heart of the unity.

Personally I think this is good. Because it is long overdue that the EU actually sat back and realised that they can't just keep on pushing and that everyone else will keep on backing off. The EU27 or EU28 may be "stronger together", but as was calculated recently, Britian is the size of the rump 20 of the EU27. Britain and Italy, together are fully 25% of the EU GDP although Britain, with it's much lower debt load, is far more valuable than Italy.

So my positon remains the same. Security information? It'll cost you a frictionless trade deal.

I read the Airbus Breixt risk impact assessment today. They estimate that for every week that production is delayed, it will cost airbus €1bn in lost turnover. EVERY WEEK. Now you can twist that into lost UK jobs if you want, but reality is that the UK is one of 4 founder members of Airbus and the UK has quite a large exposure to it. However, in reality, 3/4 of that impact will be felt by France and Germany and Italy. Italy can't afford it and France/Germany won't afford it.

It is, after all, rather hard to fly an aircraft without wings and it will take them a decade to replicate the UK facilities, knowledge, skills and attitudes and that is only ONE of the 4,000 or so UK businesses that Airbus relies on for their businesses. Airbus Satellites are constructed in the UK, designed in the UK, tested in the UK. Which is quite a thing given that ESA satellites are designed and built at ESTEC in Holland.

If the EU does all it says it is going to do with our certifications and damaging our trade, then, as far as Airbus is concerned, they might as well stab themselves in the chest with a pitchfork. Repeatedly. I'm betting there is a secrete Boeing document entitled "How stupid can the EU really be!", which details just how much of that €1bn per week they will be able to snaffle for themselves. Not to be sniffed at.

So we have the EU trying very hard to annoy the UK into getting rid of their security information they need to be secure. They are trying very hard to damage up to €1bn a week of turnover in their extremely profitable Airbus alliance and they are trying even harder to tie the EU in knots over immigration.

The UK, on the other hand, is trying very hard to come to an equitable agreement that doesn't end up in the UK taking it's trousers down and bending over...

Is it ANY wonder, at all, that Brexiteers get online and rant?

Suff wrote:The UK, on the other hand, is trying very hard to come to an agreement
that doesn't end up in the UK taking it's trousers down and bending over...

The UK should be taking a much firmer line, and putting an end to all this unnecessary talking.

How I wish I was in charge of this business. We would be out of the EU by now and if the E.U. guys didn't like it, well-hard luck.

Suff wrote:The UK, on the other hand, is trying very hard to come to an equitable agreement that doesn't end up in the UK taking it's trousers down and bending over...

But why are we negotiating an agreeement, any agreement? As Aggers hints at, we voted to Leave the EU its treaties, institutions and rules and regs. All we needed to do was invoke A50 and use the two year period to sort things out to our liking.

It was that simple - that is what was on the ballot paper.

Workingman wrote:It was that simple - that is what was on the ballot paper.

Really, I don't remember that. I remember a lot of other things though. Like disasters and penalty budgets and, well, lies basically.

Just like what is going on today.

I still want to know how the EU is going to sell Airbus without wings...

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

Remain or Leave. Simples... or maybe not.

Airbus: hmm.

14,000 jobs directly impacted. Another 4,000 secondarily impacted. Possibly 100,000 more down the line. BMW, similar,

If they are all on the the average salary that's £0.5 billion lost. For the 25 sites it is an average of £20 million from their local economies.

These companies are not the media or government. They have investors who want their dividends paid at the best possible price or they will opt out. We absolutely have to do the best for them. Or not?

Ah, yes, the remainer viewpoint.

Did you read the Airbus assessment. Airbus, the group, €1bn per WEEK, lost if the EU does not come to a deal. 14k jobs for some of the most skilled and advanced people in the world? Scare me some more.

1bn per week is a hell of a lot more French, German and Italian jobs than 14k.

All if the EU is unreasonable and cuts the UK off and refuses to accept that we are still compliant with the certifications we already have....

Boot, different foot. It is what Remain has done right from the beginning and it simply does not work.