Vocal Voices

Yet the Guardian and Independent don't want to talk about it.

Colour me surprised.

Barnier has said, from the absolute outset, that the EU does not cut deals with other countries. It was a lie the first time he said it and it was a lie the last time he said it. Now he is finally telling the truth.

The only question now is just how much they will ask for in order to get their deal. Did they finally realise that May has nowhere to go from her white paper but Hard Brexit?

Britain is not Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland or Portugal. We're not actually "asking" for anything, we're offering to deal. The EU has never had to negotiate like this before. Ever. The UK is a key integral to their financial markets, industrial markets and their budget.

All we had to do was keep on saying NO and the EU had to, eventually, bring something other than NO to the table. The cost, to the EU, of not bringing something to the table, is simply too high.

Time has run out, the bell keeps ringing but the UK refuses to salivate.

Barnier just validated everything I ever said about the EU and Brexit. Their position was a bluff. It has just been called. If Barnier thinks that stepping back, at the 11th hour, will make things easier for him, he'd better think again. He just made things infinitely worse for the EU. Had he stepped back a year ago, those who want a softer Brexit would have had time to work on it. All Barnier did was show those who don't want any deal, at all, that the EU cannot keep up the stance it has been presenting all along. It just means that the threat of Hard Brexit will be used more, not less, to force the EU to deal in good faith.

I was just saying to a colleague, yesterday, that I just want this circus over so we can move on and get on with our lives and get out of the rut which has both polarised and locked British politics. It seems that, finally, things are moving again.

I bet that Barnier never thought Raab would be harder to deal with than Davis.....

Suff wrote:I was just saying to a colleague, yesterday, that I just want this circus over so we can move on and get on with our lives and get out of the rut which has both polarised and locked British politics. ..

That's exactly what I think. I feel that the whole business has been made far more complicated than what it should have been.

All we wanted was to get out of the shackles of the E.U. So many other factors have been introduced, that realy have no bearing on the matter.

I too want it all done with, but I have my doubts.

The country voted to leave, the political class want to stay. So some form of sellout, trumpeted as a great victory and a tremendous deal, is probably still the most likely outcome.

I could be wrong and I hope I am; time will tell.

AliasAggers wrote:All we wanted was to get out of the shackles of the E.U. So many other factors have been introduced, that realy have no bearing on the matter.

Ah, yes, but all they wanted was for us to keep on paying them money. When the cash cow prepared to walk and give the finger on the way out of the door, complications melted away.

The point about the EU is and always has been, that what we want does not really matter. It is what the EU27 who are left want that drives how it runs. Today it seems that a large chunk of those 27 are worried that we won't buy their goods when we leave. They have thought for decades that it was such a good game. Export to the UK then make it difficult for the UK to export to the EU. Then we left and they are counting the cost on either side.

Whoops.

I hope you are wrong too Cromwell - I really would not like to see a sell out.

Macron seems to be promoting (or rather resurrecting) the idea of a two-tier Europe. This would see an "outer ring" of countries (politically) who are not part of the main-stream EU, and the UK would be one of those countries … who the others would be, I don't know. Sweden? Hungary? Possibly Italy and Greece?

The devil will be in the detail. If it means continued payments to and abiding by EU rules and regulations, with no political clout, then I think most Brexiteers will reject it.

If it means some sort of favoured-nation status, whilst we are conclusively and demonstratively independent from the EU, then it might be worth giving it a hearing.

I would like to see Raab and May play the defence card now. No deal means Hard Brexit and if we have a Hard Brexit we should be clear that it means we will no longer guarantee to assist European security. I shall be watching things like the Gallileo project and the European security database situation very closely …..

Personally, I still favour a Hard Brexit, so if no deal is forthcoming, I'll be quite content.

Time to play hard ball.

medsec222 wrote:Time to play hard ball.

We have been. That is why they caved.

The inconsistency of you (second-person, personal pronoun) Brexit Brunchkins is remarkable. You {apparently) voted for us to leave the EU, it's institutions, rules and regulations, treaties, court of arbitration, single market, customs union and four pillars. You wanted our sovereignty back, control of our borders, free trade with the RoW and blue passports.

Yet now you Brunchkins are gloating that the EU has "caved in" by offering us a Norway+ deal. A deal that keeps us in all of the above, but with no say in how they operate - and we pay in as well.

52% of you (those who voted) might have voted "Leave" but there was never a majority for any type of "Leave", not even the one now on offer, because nobody knew what "Leave" meant. We, all of us, now find ourselves with the choice of BRINO, far worse than the deal we already have, or the no-deal disaster very few imagined.

Well done, Brunchkins, you have screwed us all good and proper.

Well done, Brunchkins, you have screwed us all good and proper.

No Brunchkin here, WM! And no gloating from me, either …...

Read my last post. I have never altered my stance that I wanted and voted for a complete and total withdrawal from the EU. Hard Brexit with knobs on. Fill in the Channel Tunnel and close the Port of Dover kind of thing.

The only reason we're in this current state of trying to negotiate deals with an inflexible EU bureaucracy is because we have a weak bunch of politicians who have completely bottled it (all of them, including Boris, Cameron and May).

You're not satisfied. I'm not satisfied. Nobody's going to be satisfied. But that's life ....... [shrug]