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Macron has just totally enraged every Trump voter and about half the non Trump voters.

He has just made a statement that the EU needs a "real" Army to protect the EU against Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump. The word Ingrate, doesn't really do justice to the situation.

We know that France has had an on again off again relationship with NATO and had never really forgiven either the UK or the US for having to rescue them, but actively driving Trump to withdraw from NATO is not really a clever move.

Macron lives in a glass house he does not understand. He's not throwing stones, he has a catapult armed with ball bearings...

Macron makes a lot of noise for a man who was voted in as the least worst option, and whose popularity ratings have gone through the floor.

cromwell wrote:Macron makes a lot of noise for a man who was voted in as the least worst option, and whose popularity ratings have gone through the floor.

One of my bosses is French. I was explaining the conundrum of hated French presidents. You actually need to vote FOR the person, not against the other person. Otherwise when they launch their manifesto you are going to be seriously disappointed....

Talk about twisting a man's words!

Headline: Emmanuel Macron calls for 'real European army' to defend against Russia and US.

What was said:?

"We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America,"

"When I see President Trump announcing that he's quitting a major disarmament treaty which was formed after the 1980s Euromissile crisis that hit Europe, who is the main victim? Europe and its security,"

"We will not protect the Europeans unless we decide to have a true European army,"

[Russia] "is at our borders and has shown that it can be a threat".

"We need a Europe which defends itself better alone, without just depending on the United States,"

Trump will be over the moon that a senior EU leader agrees with him that Europe cannot forever rely on the USA for its security by hanging on to its shirt tails via NATO.

Workingman wrote:Talk about twisting a man's words!

Headline: Emmanuel Macron calls for 'real European army' to defend against Russia and US.

What was said:?

"We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America,"

"When I see President Trump announcing that he's quitting a major disarmament treaty which was formed after the 1980s Euromissile crisis that hit Europe, who is the main victim? Europe and its security,"

"We will not protect the Europeans unless we decide to have a true European army,"

[Russia] "is at our borders and has shown that it can be a threat".

"We need a Europe which defends itself better alone, without just depending on the United States,"

Trump will be over the moon that a senior EU leader agrees with him that Europe cannot forever rely on the USA for its security by hanging on to its shirt tails via NATO.

Twisting or interpreting?

The question isn’t whether we manage to persuade the United States of America – a great people, and a great country; the question is whether the United States of America regards us as a power with strategic autonomy – that is the real question raised for Europe today. We are forced to accept that this is not the case today; we must take a clear-sighted, even ruthless look at ourselves; I do not honestly think today that China or the United States thinks Europe is a power with strategic autonomy comparable to their own. I do not believe it.

it all depends how you read the words. Does "strategic autonomy" mean that we are independent but allies. Or does it mean that the great nations of the world have to respect the EU and defer to the EU through the ability of its military power. That the threat of the EU military power means the EU cannot just be dismissed.

If you read the whole article you will find that it accuses many of many things. The US, the UK, Italy, Hungary, Greece. It is an open invitation to create the United States of Europe. Something his own people are 70% against.

It is, perhaps, an extreme interpretation of what Macron said. It is, however, taken all together, a defensible position to take about the speech and what it means.

The real point here, the sore point here for France, is that the UK is seen as an autonomous power that cannot be ignored. France is NOT. With the UK leaving the EU, the UK walks away with that autonomous power intact. The EU, on the other hand, is even more diminished in terms of unilateral security. This is a point Macron is trying to push without actually saying it.

I know, let's move away from the OP's accusation and 'cherry pick' from a completely different speech delivered to the French Ambassadors’ Conference on 27 August 2018.

It speaks initially about the place of France in today's world and then expands into its position in the wider world.

It has SFA to do with the OP except maybe, perhaps, possibly, these few quotes - as well as your own.

We are paying the price for decades of a Europe that – and we must understand this – has sometimes been bland and weak and has perhaps not always offered enough. In reality, we have to step up our efforts.

Europe can no longer entrust its security to the United States alone. It is up to us to assume our responsibilities and to guarantee European security and thereby sovereignty.

We must fully take on board the consequences the end of the Cold War. Allies today are still extremely important, but balances, and sometimes the reflexes on which they were built, need to be reviewed. And that also means that Europe should also act accordingly. This enhanced solidarity will involve a review of the European defence and security architecture. This will include initiating renewed dialogue on cyber security, chemical weapons, conventional weapons, territorial conflicts, space security and the protection of polar regions, especially with Russia.

Yes, he's French, and yes, France is in the undemocratic, much despised, dictatorial and hated EU, but that does not make him wrong - far from it.

Suff wrote:The real point here, the sore point here for France, is that the UK is seen as an autonomous power that cannot be ignored. France is NOT. With the UK leaving the EU, the UK walks away with that autonomous power intact. The EU, on the other hand, is even more diminished in terms of unilateral security. This is a point Macron is trying to push without actually saying it.

I plead pressure of work and travel.... It is 7:19 and I am standing in the cold outside a Ryanair flight... Again.

I need to find a non UK version of the transcript and don't have time..

I don't say Macron is wrong. I just say the timing of his speech and the slant of the content can have an impact greater than all the Russian Facebook sites in the world.

Trump strengthened his hold on the Senate which means impeachment is a total non starter. Witness the Trump moves to crush the Russia probe now he is secure.

If you want to see election interference you just need to listen to what other world leaders are saying. That has a direct and immediate influence. But, of course, that is normal isn't it..

Suff, you quote my whole post but seemingly miss the point I am railing at: The Headline.

"Emmanuel Macron calls for 'real European army' to defend against Russia and US." is from Sky News website and its sentiment is repeated in the broadcast version and in the rags reporting Macron's words.

They are click-bait headlines "suggesting" that Russia, [China] and the US are all a military threat - as in a war threat. That is where the twisting comes in.

What Macron said is : We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America.

"With respect to" is the key here. With respect to Russia does mean militarily as it is a threat - now and tomorrow. A robust military option is needed. With respect to China also means a robust military capability. China is a bit of an unknown, but it looks to be wanting to be a superpower in the next couple of decades.

With respect to the US it is a bit more nuanced. America First and an isolationist position is creeping in. Trump has (rightly) criticised its NATO allies for not meeting their obligations to their militaries. He at one point threatened to withdraw completely, but has drawn back. However, he is still in the mood to restrict US troops, hardware and capabilities to the cause unless absolutely necessary and to protect US "influence". With that in mind Macron's other quote: "We need a Europe which defends itself better alone, without just depending on the United States." comes into play.

He is definitely not saying that the US is a military threat (as per the headlines), an enemy, but that it could be a reluctant ally. He is, therefore, right that the EU must up its game in defence of itself. That only leaves a few options to my mind.

* NATO fully funded by its members
* A mini NATO type force for the EU
* A full EU military with an EUAF and Air Marshall, an EUA under a Brigadier General and an EUN under an Admiral.

However, as it is all pie-in-the-sky I will leave it there. Should there ever be serious international or multinational negotiations I will be back.

Workingman wrote:He is definitely not saying that the US is a military threat (as per the headlines), an enemy, but that it could be a reluctant ally. He is, therefore, right that the EU must up its game in defence of itself. That only leaves a few options to my mind.

There is a lot said about Trump and the way he communicates, i.e. there are a lot of things he says and a lot he doesn't say leaving room for a lot of interpretation.

However when Macron, supposedly an exemplary President, starts to make statements which can be misinterpreted (granted wilfully), two days before a US election, you have to stick the tongue in the cheek and say "interference".

I don't disagree that the EU needs to be responsible for its own security. Too long, now, have they paid lip service to a NATO presided over by the US and the UK, with France a much lower third. Simply put the vast majority of the EU have not been pulling their weight on European Security.

To then stick the US into a paragraph talking about Russia and China is poor service for the vast amounts of support and defence NATO has given them. No matter how correct he is about the EU being responsible for its own security.