Is it time to close the Ukrainian air space?

[miasmum]

What do you think?

[cromwell]

No. How would it be enforced?
Who would enforce it? NATO?
So we would have NATO jets and Russian jets over the Ukraine. WW3 here we come.

[TheOstrich]

Appreciate I'll be in a minority of 1 over this, but Yes, absolutely.

And send a peacekeeping force into Western Ukraine.

I almost can't bear to watch the news and what those poor people are going through. It makes me determined to offer our spare room to a Ukranian refugee, assuming Johnson and Patel stop tiddling around and get their act together. That's anothing thing that is making me very angry ... Ukranian refugees should not have to jump through countless bureaucratic hoops to get to the UK.

Call Putin's bluff over the nuclear war threat. We cannot live with a monster like this threatening our futures, whether we're European or UK. If he wants it, then he can have it back in spades.

Can I be really contoversial now?
#betterDeadthanRed

Sorry for venting. But I feel very frustrated and helpless watching the world dither as genocide unfolds.

[TheOstrich]

No. How would it be enforced?
Who would enforce it? NATO?
So we would have NATO jets and Russian jets over the Ukraine. WW3 here we come.

Faced with a tyrant like Putin, I have absolutely no qualms about threatening WW3 and retaliating with nukes if Putin makes just one wrong move.
Our parents stood up to another tyrant in 1940. Are we too lily-livered to do the same?
Sorry, Crommers.

[Suff]

Appreciate I'll be in a minority of 1 over this, but Yes, absolutely.

And send a peacekeeping force into Western Ukraine.

No problem with that. So long as you don't mind writing the letters to the dead aircrew's parents.

Because that is what it means, putting the lives of our military on the line. Granted it is to save tens of thousands of civilian lives. That is a good thing and our servicemen and servicewomen see that as a good thing and think it is their duty to do that. Sadly their families generally don't.

Let's be frank about this whole "no fly zone" thing. This isn't Iraq or Syria or Bosnia/Serbia. Russia keeps their top of the line anti aircraft weapons to themselves. They don't sell them. Our aircraft would be facing anti air weapons at least as good as NATO weapons.

We would have to sortie into Russia and Belarus to take out the anti air weapons. We'd have to mix it up with their fighters and they make some of the best in the world and have spent decades working on command and control where we had a strong lead.

Even then, the vast majority of the damage is being done by shelling. Not by air borne weapons. Should we also set up a no shelling zone and try to wipe out the artillery?

By which time you might as well just get the tanks on the border and saddle up. Because you're way involved beyond a simple "no fly zone".

Then what do you do when the Ukrainians start overflying Russia and Belarus and bombing the crap out of them to stop the influx of troops?

It all sounds really good. "set up a no fly zone, we have to stop the planes". In fact it says "get involved". Getting involved in a war is like getting pregnant, you either are or you are not.

BTW I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying "do it for the right reasons and be prepared to back it up with everything you have".

[Kaz]

No, for the reasons outlined by Suff. That's my head talking, whereas my heart has huge sympathy for what Ossie said

[miasmum]

My heart is with Ossie too. I hate seeing families dead on the street but more than that I hate seeing them fleeing and terrified.

[Kaz]

It's simply horrific, but Crommers is right - imposing a no-fly zone would mean WW3

[miasmum]

We need to give them more weapons then.

[Suff]

Weapons need people who can use them. British military train for 6 months just to become cannon fodder. Only after about 2-3 years are they fully effective and proficient with a range of weapons.

Flooding the country with hardware in the hands of civilians in uniform is not going to beat a large trained military. Even if they're crap they can just bury them in numbers and power.

The whole tactics of NATO are to make them pay so dearly for every mile they move that eventually they give up and go home. Ukraine doesn't have the space, the hardware or the trained people to operate it. What sounds great on paper becomes a paper tiger when the first rounds start flying.

What they need is to be able to, quite literally, wipe out a complete division of the Russian army in one go, break through and start wreaking havoc behind the lines. It's a suicide missions but it would cause total havoc, halt the advance and allow the rest to organise and retrench.

We've already given them more anti tank weapons than the Russians have tanks. But in untrained hands they don't always hit. If you don't know what you are doing, firing one might be the last thing you ever do. But if you have another 3 tank busters with you, that's 1 for 4. Losses like that start to mount up.

What they could do with are anti tank mines, antipersonal mines, MLRS rocket launchers and a hell of a lot of very fast supply vehicles. Supplies, a base to put them in where they can be distributed from and where it is safe from attack.

Have a look at the map and you'll see there are precious few places that fit the bill. MLRS would even the score very rapidly but NATO won't want them getting anywhere near the conflict. Those things can rain down a whole regiments artillery on a target and be 10 miles away before anyone works out where the rockets came from. They call them Shoot and Scoot. Their reloading is fast and effective. But it all hinges on fast, flexible, supplies and a whole regiment of people who know what they are doing and commanders who know how to use them.

If we wanted to bog this conflict down we'd put 100 MLRS with a support squadron, logistics squadron and a cadre of officers who know how to use them. Surrounded by Patriot missiles and a complete SAM screen. All rapidly portable.

Now THAT would let the Russians know they had been hurt and stop them cold.

Until you see something like that, you know they're not serious about supporting Ukraine.