Vocal Voices

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... unity.html

How do we feel about this?

On the face of it, it sounds positive, especially in the light of the renewed tensions with Russia - but I can't help feeling it'll just be a talking shop - and is simply a Macron-esque political gimmick.
I think we can function well enough outside the EU without being drawn back into its political periphery, and as things currently stand, there's nothing stopping us "co-operating" with them on matters of mutual interest anyway, as long as both sides are willing.

I guess I fail to see what either side would really gain from it, unless you can enlighten me!

Wasn't part of the reason for Brexit being that Brexiteers feared the EU becoming the European Political Union (EPU)? This just sounds a bit like a two tier version and Manu needing to say something as he starts his second term as French President and before France hands over the presidency of the EU.

Not for me, and I suspect not for many in the EU or wider Europe either.

More here.

“This new European organization would allow democratic European nations adhering to our set of values to find a new space for political cooperation, security, cooperation in energy, transport, investment, infrastructure, and the movement of people, especially our youth,” Macron said. “Joining it would not prejudge future membership in the European Union, necessarily, just as it would not be closed to those who have left.”

Very confusing.

I think I read somewhere that Olaf Schultz described it as a "very interesting concept".

But it is also being reported that a whole raft of EU countries would refuse to endorse it.
So it seems like what was Francois Mitterand's original concept from way back is likely to be little more than a dead duck.

TheOstrich wrote:I think I read somewhere that Olaf Schultz described it as a "very interesting concept".

Being diplomatic?

Workingman wrote:Wasn't part of the reason for Brexit being that Brexiteers feared the EU becoming the European Political Union (EPU)? This just sounds a bit like a two tier version and Manu needing to say something as he starts his second term as French President and before France hands over the presidency of the EU.

I didn't want to start the thread but, yes, WM, that was exactly it. The whole part about the EU and Brexit was "we're OK with the trade but keep your fingers out of our politics and our internal laws which do not pertain to trade".

Macron is just burbling on about the same thing in a different form. The EU could not survive a larger political layer over the top of the EU which was branded "European".

In fact it would be easier to just co-opt everyone into NATO and be done with it. If Russia feels hemmed in they can blame themselves.

However, Macron is howling at the moon. The EU won't allow the derailment of their project and nobody really wants yet more "politics". They can't agree on anything substantive today and adding more in the mix will only make agreement harder.

As for "we'll create a new European political alliance and have you back"? No reason why we should not do the same and "let the EU in"....

As you say WM, Macron had to say something and "more EU" in the face of the EU blocking Ukraine, was not going to sell.

We have only just escaped.

Were we prisoners?

Anyway, out of the frying pan into the oven for the ready meal.

Macron is just thinking out loud, floating a few ideas.
As there is very little detail to them as yet it's hard to come to any conclusion.
Don't rule anything out automatically, just park it for now.

We walked towards a trade agreement voluntarily Frank, only to discover the hidden agenda was political. It was a duff decision which took the UK nearly 50 years to reverse. I doubt Boris' oven ready deal is anything like the oven ready deal Nigel would have served up, but that's just my opinion.

Workingman wrote:Were we prisoners?

In a way, prisoners of our own device.

Until the Lisbon changes to the TEU and TFEU, there was no way to exit. This exit ability was added to get the Danes to sign up to Lisbon and placate their EU skeptic minority. A treaty which enacted far more QMV and took away independent veto power from "small" countries. The exit clause was a "well if you don't like how the votes are going you can always leave". Being well aware Denmark was never going to leave first.

If they had thought for one second that the UK would trigger this clause they would have never allowed it and stuff the Danes. I remember Juncker coming to the UK and talking to the press. Relaxed, smiling, having just told Cameron to go do one. Certain in his complacency that the UK would never do anything so stupid as vote to leave. He was well briefed, don't talk about further unification. But he knew better and talked about it. It was refreshing really, he was being honest. He had no clue what he was doing.

Bit the lemon big time after the vote though.

So, no, we were not prisoners. Our vote proved it. Should we ever vote to return, at least we will know the truth of that clause. It is there and it works.

Macron, though. "We'll create a new Europe and you can come back" "come back" "come on come back".

Yer right. Too soon and too bitter for that one. We ripped the cover off and there was the underbelly of the beast we had been talking about all along. Visible for all who want to look.

Nobody is going to be saying "you can come back" once we enact Article 16 and start undoing the damage done by parliament and HOL uncontrolled. Then it won't be "come back" it will be "keep going". But at least Macron presented himself as a leader with ideas. However poorly conceived.

Hence why I didn't want to raise this topic. I saw it within minutes of hitting the press. It opens up far too many wounds to be easy to talk about. Fortunately we don't need to worry too much about this, nobody is going to listen to Macron so it will not be a decision we have to make down the road.