Vocal Voices

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... dence.html

If I were a shipyard worker Portsmouth, I'd be absolutely furious. Why should they lose their jobs just to give the Scots a sweetie to stay in the Union, which is what is being suggested by Downing Street per this article.

Tell you what, that's two seats the Tories and the LibDems have just lost in 2015 on the South Coast.
And I wish we English could have a referendum about Scottish independence .....

The BBC view. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-g ... t-24831779

Just the facts with a few numbers and a bit of positive spin all bulked out with information on the aircraft carriers and T26 frigates and T45 destroyers.

It was only later that the political side note by Nick Robinson was added.

It's inconcievable to me - navy ships not being built at Portsmouth? I think it's important to remember that Govan has lost 800 jobs as well, though.

TheOstrich wrote:If I were a shipyard worker Portsmouth, I'd be absolutely furious. Why should they lose their jobs just to give the Scots a sweetie to stay in the Union

Erm and who cared when Rosyth lost the Nuclear sub refitting contract under Major. Even though Rosyth was the only dockyard in the whole country with a certified refitting dock. Devonport didn’t have one, but it did have lots of Tory voters….

At a time when unemployment in Fife was reaching 50% and, generally, in Scotland unemployment was much higher than the national average.

Rosyth dockworkers were furious. But were ignored. The upshot? The Tories lost all but one seat in Government in Scotland and Scottish Labour provided such a strong support to Blair and Brown that they got their assembly and they got contracts back.

The work is not there. The money is not there. People want good benefits, good pensions, good NHS and good public services. All on less taxes. That leaves no money for defence. So no jobs for those who build military equipment.

All at a time of world recession where spending on defence is under scrutiny everywhere.

This is just another part of Austerity.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/ ... d-1.135518

All of what you say is relevant Suff, but the point being made by the Telegraph and the Courier about this latest set of closures is that they have the look and feel of a sweetener for a "No" vote re independence. It is telling that Portsmouth can be reopened in fairly short order.

If independence does come about then Scotland will be a sovereign state able to choose whether or not to join the EU, UN, NATO and so on, and responsible for its own defence. It will not be part of the UK rump, a rump which might decide to service its ships in its own ports rather than those of a foreign power.

Only an Englishman could link this breakdown of job losses as a sweetener for a NO vote.

Only an Englishman could remember that Scotland is 10% of the UK when budget funds are being talked about but completely ignore that any loss in jobs is magnified by ten times between Scotland and England in terms of impact to the workforce.

Only an Englishman could forget that 100 jobs lost in Scotland is the equivalent of 1,000 jobs lost in England and turn multiple hundreds of jobs lost in Scotland as a "Sweetener" rather than the local social disaster it really is.

That, believe me, is what the Scots See. This article is one of the key things I have identified which will stampede the Scots into a Yes vote. All England needs to do is keep schtum and the NO vote is assured.

I don't see it. I really don't.

The saddest thing here is how the British working class is being set against one another.
We can play the blame game all day long. Didn't Vickers of Leeds get shut down because the other tank firm was situated in Gordon Brown's constituency?

It may be that only an Englishman, or some of them, could possibly think such a move could be a sweetener for a "No" vote, but political commentators are saying that is what they thought.

It is easy to see why, because it opens up a whole new debate. Questions can now be openly asked about an independent Scotland's defence budget, the size of its armed forces - Army, Air Force and Navy. Will its Navy be large enough to keep the yards open or will they have to tender for work on the open market? How many jobs will be lost? These, and other tough questions, can now be used to force Salmond to give answers he would rather keep to himself.

And yes, it is sad to see worker pitched against worker, as Cromwell notes.

BTW Cromwell; Barnbow, in the Tory constituency of Elemet, was shut to keep the AV plants in Tony Blair's neighbouring (Labour) constituencies on the Tyne open. Leeds was one site with its own rail link and the M1 on its doorstep. Newcastle was spread over three sites. Go figure.

So now the truth comes out.

Far from a sweetener, it is a stick. The contracts for the destroyers will not be signed until _After_ the referendum.

Not the sweetener. The stick. And no guarantee that they will ever be given for the Clyde....

Doubly insulting to be accused of getting a "Sweetener".

Scotland has seen many election promises turn to dust after the election. Like the A1M to Edinburgh... Still waiting for that one and will be waiting long after I die....

Scots, on the other hand, have had a different experience of their "Government". Local focus on local infrastructure. A1 upgrades south to England. Proposed dualling of the A9. the Aberdeen dual bypass likely to happen. All locally funded, all vital for Scotland. England, of course, wants to upgrade the links to Glasgow. Very typical.....

This referendum will be about much, much more than the England/Scotland divide. It will be about what Scots want for a Scottish future. I still don't see that they will separate, but, in my opinion, it comes down to the English press and the English politicians. If they keep their mouth's shut, then it's likely that the status quo will continue.

If, on the other hand, as they are want to do, they mouth continually about Scotland getting "more than it's worth", then a very different result is quite possible.

Stick or sweetener; as an English Gemini with a Scottish grandfather I can see how the media could describe it both ways.

A cynical part of me also suspects that some Westminster politicians, especially Tories, wouldn't be that disappointed in a "Yes" vote given that they have little influence in Scotland anyway.