Vocal Voices

Has a screaming headline this morning "Massacre Guns On Sale In UK".
It's front page story goes on to say "Lethal assault rifles like the one used in Amerca's Sandy Hook school massacre are being LEGALLY sold in Britain... Shocked campaigners said "It's frightening"... Horrified campaigners... demanding new gun laws... semi-automatic weapons virtually identical to the ones used by killer Adam Lanza..."

This is absolute, lying rubbish.

Assault rifles have been banned in Britain for 20+ years. What is on sale in the UK is a much less powerful gun which happens to look like the american killers gun - which later on in the article, the Sun admits!

This is sensationalist, mendacious rubbish, deliberately misleading headlines just trying to sell a few more copies; UK journalism at it's worst.

Let me see....

A Zastava 850 has a steering wheel, an engine, a gearbox and four wheels.... It must be almost exactly similar to a F1 Red Bull Renault.

Can't access the Sun, so when you say "a less powerful gun", Cromwell, can I ask what exactly that means?

How do you define an assault rifle? (I've no knowledge in this area).

Is the gun on sale in the UK an automatic rather than single shot? With what capacity?

If it is capable of firing multiple bullets, I'm not convinced it should be on sale. I suspect there are some people out there who aren't responsible owner/users, as I suspect the issue of licences in the UK isn't robust enough to pick up the loonies and the whackos, and I wouldn't want anything even remotely similar to the American weapon legally available in the UK ....

The standard weapon, when I was in the RAF, was the SLR (semi automatic) 7.62mm - it was lethal at over one mile. The first round had to be bolt loaded, but from then on each pull of the trigger used exhaust gases to re-load - one pull, one bullet.

The "real" AR 15, as used in the massacre in Newtown, uses 5.56 rounds - not much weaker than an SLR at close quarters.

The rules regarding ownership of such weapons in the UK means that they are, effectively, unobtainable.

The guns shown by The Sun are rimfire .22 - pop-guns. They are an "assault rifle" only in the sense that they can be used effectively if you and your mates are about to attack a field of unarmed rabbits.

Just because they have the "looks" of the real thing does not mean that they are the "real" thing.

In my opinion Frank any one who is found with a gun illegally in UK whatever the type ...should go to prison... Guns are freely obtainable in the UK if wanted as we see by the number on the streets. The thought of them makes me shudder.

TheOstrich wrote:Can't access the Sun, so when you say "a less powerful gun", Cromwell, can I ask what exactly that means?

How do you define an assault rifle? (I've no knowledge in this area).

Is the gun on sale in the UK an automatic rather than single shot? With what capacity?

OK Oz, one by one.

A .22 long rifle cartridge will typically have these characteristics.
Weight of bullet 40 grns.
Muzzle velocity of bullet 1,085 feet per second.
Velocity after 100 yds 941 fps.
Muzzle energy 105 ft / lbs.
energy at 100 yds 79 ft /lbs
This is the "almost identical" gun available for sale in the UK.

Now, here are the same figures for the .223 cartridge used in the Bushmaster assault rifle used by the killer in the USA.
Weight of bullet 50 grns.
Muzzle velocity 3,300 feet per second.
Velocity after 500 yds 1,569 fps
Muzzle energy 1,209 ft /lbs
Muzzle energy after 500 yds 273 ft /lbs

So the USA bullet comes out of the muzzle three times faster with a ten times greater impact than the .22 for sale in the UK. After 500 yards the bullet from the American gun is still going faster than the bullet that has just come out of the British .22 muzzle. After 500 yeards the USA bullet still has more than three and a half times the impact of the bullet that has just come out of the muzzle of the British gun.

You may notice that the .22 figures only go up to 100 yards. This is because a .22 lr cartridge won't actually reach 500 yards, or anything like.

Assault rifle? Difficult. All assault rifles are semi-automatic, but not all semi-automatic rifles are assault rifles.
Assault rifles are generally considered to have been invented by the Germans in WW2. With typical teutonic efficiency, they worked out that a lot of combat was occuering at ranges up to 300 metres. Their existing bolt action rifles were immensley powerful and could reach up to 800 metres easily. So, the Germans invented a smaller, less powerful rifle with a self loading action, the Sturmgewehr 44. It fired the Kurtz (short) cartridge of 7.92 caliber. It did not shoot to 800 metres because it didn't need to. Because the cartridges were smaller the soldier could carry more of them. Because it was a semi-auto it sould lay down a supressive fire to cover an advance or halt an attack. The Kalashnikov of 1947 borrowed from this gun. The USA has had the M16 from circa 1967; the Bushmaster is a civilian version of this gun.

Other military issue semi-automatic rifles like the American Garand (and WM's FNL self loader) were effectively "old school" military rifles, differing from the bolt actions only in their operation. both were immensely powerful and had just as much range as the old bolt action guns, and more power.

Magazine capacity varies; a .22 Ruger will typically have a 10 shot magazine but Butler Creek sell a 25 shot magazine.

A 0.22 rifle with lr ammo can nevertheless be quite a deadly weapon which can certainly kill at 100 yards probably more. I remember testing steel helmets in WW2 by firing a .22 at them. The bullet went straight through the current issue but I was able to find a WW1 issue which only dented.

Many thanks for that, Cromwell.

OK, the American gun used in the Sandy Hook shooting (the Bushmaster) is more powerful and has greater range than this British look-alike (the .22).

But if I understand you correctly, this .22 has a magazine that holds 10 cartridges (or bullets, whatever the correct term is) and is a semi-automatic ....

So my next question inevitably is: are semi-automatics legally saleable in the UK?

And assuming they are legally saleable, how does that tie in with:

WM wrote:The rules regarding ownership of such weapons in the UK means that they are, effectively, unobtainable.

Any thoughts, WM?

TheOstrich wrote:Many thanks for that, Cromwell.

No problem.

TheOstrich wrote:OK, the American gun used in the Sandy Hook shooting (the Bushmaster) is more powerful and has greater range than this British look-alike (the .22).

Correct.

TheOstrich wrote:But if I understand you correctly, this .22 has a magazine that holds 10 cartridges (or bullets, whatever the correct term is) and is a semi-automatic ....).

Correct again.

TheOstrich wrote:So my next question inevitably is: are semi-automatics legally saleable in the UK?

Yes... and no. The only semi-automatic rifles you can buy are ones that fire rimfire cartridges; as opposed to centrefire. Rimfire cartridges cannot stand the pressures that centrefire cartridges can, so are inherently less powerful. The only semi-automatic rifle you can buy in the UK (legally, anyway!) is in .22 calibre. The most powerful of these is the .22 WMR. I used to own one in this calibre and to the best of my recollection I didn't massacre the local Derby and Joan club. Mind you my memory is shocking these days...

TheOstrich wrote:And assuming they are legally saleable, how does that tie in with:

WM wrote:The rules regarding ownership of such weapons in the UK means that they are, effectively, unobtainable.

Any thoughts, WM?

Because semi-automatic rifles that use the more powerful centrefire cartridges (and are available in many different calibres), as used at Sandy Hook, Hungerford and Columbia shootings (amongst others) have been banned for 20+ years in this country - you can't buy or own one, end of.

Ah, so, whether a semi-automatic rifle is legally available in the UK or not is down to the type of cartridge.

Nevertheless, it does seem a bit peculiar to me, as a layman, to be honest .....

I fully accept that such a weapon is only lethal in the hands of a "non-responsible" owner, (as, after all, would be an RPG ),but I would have thought the ability to multi-fire bullets would have been the criteria for banning a weapon, not its actual performance per se.

Ossie - trying to choose words very carefully as not sure when it's the open season on Ostriches ......