Vocal Voices

So where are we? What do people think.

Let me see. The BBC moratorium on bad English news has been lifted. Oooh look the English NHS has burned through Half a Billion more than their budget in ONLY A FEW MONTHS. Wouldn't that have played well in the referendum. Unlike the leaked information that Scotland was looking at a half a billion black hole Next Year.

Then the Telegraph thinks that things might be the same again even if Westminster reneges on the promises made for one reason and only one reason, to force a No vote in an independence referendum.

I wonder. If they don't do what they promised can the Scots call the result null and void and call another referndum because another country cynically interfered in their referendum process??? I wonder.

Then the Torygraph has the sheer Gaul to say that

The most that could be achieved before May would be some cross-party agreement about what they would all like to do in the next Parliament. But the next Parliament is the next Parliament. Luckily, we are still enough of a free country that the old Parliament cannot command the new one, which the voters will just have chosen.

So all these constitutional matters will be issues at the May election. Who will benefit? The SNP, a bit, because it will shout about broken promises; but I suspect that Scottish voters, after years of constitutional controversy, will return with relief to normal issues, and refuse to get too excited.

How quaint. The natives were restless and now they're all settled down so we can carry on with business as usual!

Then, of course, there was the Skinhead violence reported after the vote. Did you notice that there was not one single reported incident of any wrongdoing in the No campaign. Honestly, I know the Scots, we're not saints, there is no way nobody got mouthy or uppity or got loud with drink. Not a single report. Of course we can now report trouble with a Union Jack, it's allowed. Even if it has nothing to do with Yes or No.

I notice nobody took me up on my statement about how we all knew Farage was a racist. If you go to Scotland, even today, Farage has been painted as black as the BNP and Scots are less likely to be racist than the English because they see much less of an impact of foreigners. So I wonder, will 44% of the people start to wonder if Farage and the UKIP are any more racist than they are a bunch of thugs who will not allow anyone to finish their speech or say a word against them.

Then we hear that all but the RBS have refused to guarantee they won't leave Scotland if the Devo Max is not to their liking.

So the Scots still don't have Oil revenues but their businesses and their economy start to slide because companies are leaving the sinking ship because they don't know just how bad Westminster will make it. Plus they won't have independence with which to use their own government to entice them to stay. If Scotland were then to try and get independence again, the case would be worse than it is today and today it's not bad.

I would expect the English government to entice as much business south as possible whilst replacing the jobs with Government jobs for the UK. That would mean the nominal GDP would be the same but if Scotland ever tried to be "so stupid" again, they would be destroyed.

And just to round it all up, it's business as usual for the press again.

I expect to start hearing the words "Worst of all worlds" and "We were duped" soon.

I only have one thing to say about that. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. The Scots have been fooled by Westminster once within living memory. Now it's twice. You fools.

The good point? 16 and 17 year olds got the vote. Many of them will have been swayed by this so called "impassioned" speech from Westminster's "finest idiots". Just how are these teenagers going to feel the first time some English MP stands up in parliament and slaps them in the face? They are not old enough to have the cynicism of experience. They were not political enough before this debate to fully understand all of the ramifications of what was said.

But they are young enough to nourish a burning hatred for being lied to and sold out. Even better. Westminster is going to have to deal with them for the next 60 to 70 years.

Which brings a smile to my face every time I think of it....

I agree, I don't think it can possibly be "business as usual" for the foreseeable future, despite what the media feeds us. Westminster has an obligation to deliver additional powers to the Scottish Assembly as promised, and following on from that, Westminster has to sort out the West Lothian question - English people to decide on English laws. Anything less will only engender further division and rivalry.

It's got to be done without getting over-bureaucratic though. I'm not in favour of city-states. We need a single overarching UK parliament, above the three current Assemblies and a new English Assembly. How you would divide the respective powers is a matter of conjecture - Parliament to have overall fiscal policy but each of the four Assemblies has the absolute right to raise local sales tax for local development. Parliament should set minimum standards for welfare and benefits but each Assembly has the power to decide what additional freebies they want to self-fund and give. So if you want free tuition fees in Scotland for Scottish kids, fine, as long as you self fund with a local tax.

Personally I'd like to see the Barnett formula payments stopped. It's not creating a fair and equal society. I know you will howl about North Sea Oil revenues for the Scots, Suff, as you have been doing for a number of months now, but you have to understand how that plays out with the rest of us. Don't expect me to start buying haggis or Loch Fyne salmon again until I can accept that the Scots are not getting an unfair share of my tax money.

There's going to be a huge amount of discussion about this, and I'm sure many of us will have our own ideas and priorities. Maybe we will have to abrogate our priorities in that discussion if we are serious about creating a fairer society.

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Whoa, slow down there. Devo-max can and will be delivered, but it will not be in weeks or maybe even months. The headline areas of tax, welfare, budget, employment rights and so on all look shiny and sparkling out in the sunshine, but the roots need to be tended for them to survive. There will be thousands of details to be ironed out for them to work properly. It will be done, just not by Monday.

As for the other things, the West Lothian Question, the English problem. It was a question I was also going to ask. We have an unwritten constitution and the good parts of it have stood the test of time. Wise heads would say that we do not rush into changing it in a way that requires constant tinkering forever more. The eventual outcome has to be one that works equitably for England, Northern Island, Wales and Scotland: it cannot be more of the same old, same old with a slight twist.

We, the Union, look to be drifting towards some sort of federalism, one that would leave each area with the independence to run their own business on a day-to-day level, but with "national" issues decided by a federal government. Now, we are not going to go for the US model, for the obvious reason that we are a constitutional monarchy. Nor are we likely to go for the German model as we do not have the history of the Lander. We will probably have to create a uniquely British model, and that will take time.

The back-of-a-fag-packet proposals so far are not particularly appealing: An English Parliament, English Regions, or City Statelets are not for me. London would still control us all - including the NI. Welsh and Scottish parliaments. Somebody, somewhere is going to have to sit down and take a long hard look at what things could work and then, in the spirit of democracy, they are going to have to put them to the people, with the English 'solution' being put only to the English people.

Following what has happened in Scotland the English have awoken to other possibilities and they will not roll over and let English MPs decide what is best for them, the MPs. There has been a tectonic shift in attitudes in all quarters of the land and the elite had better (will have to) sit up and take notice. For that I would have thanked Scotland whichever way the vote had gone.

Things can't be the same again. Something will have to be done to address the inequality felt by the English. I don't agree with power devolving to cities - another recipe for disaster and with the distinct opportunity for people to line their pockets. There has been a suggestion of Parliament meeting on one day to discuss English issues with only English MPs being able to vote. I am in favour of this but I can see how Labour wouldn't like it. Like Ossie, I think the Barnett formula should be discontinued. Lets start with a level playing field and devolve equal powers to each country to run its own affairs, whilst still keeping within the UK. I can see why Scotland wanted rid of the present bunch in Westminster, I am sure they are not the only ones. I hope UKIP get a foot in the door now and are able to shake the mix a bit, as it is certainly needed.

I wouldn't trust any of them in Westminster to keep their promises. However, these last minute promises were made in a desperate last ditch attempt without the approval of Parliament, and in fairness to the rest of us, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, changes will have to be well thought out and not written in haste on the back of an envelope.

The Scots are no different to any of the rest of us in wanting more of a say in the way things are run, but in the end I think the NO vote came down to more Scots wanting to keep within the United Kingdom rather than them falling for the last minute 'bribe'. Just my opinion - will wait with interest to see if those in Westminster can put a package together which will satisfy each country in the UK. No easy task.

let's put it this way. Promises were made in order to change the course of a referendum which would have been massively damaging to the English economy.

Now those promises are being warped into some way of protecting that English economy whilst locking out the Scots who voted to stay. Cementing the power of Westminster and dividing the Scots.

Great. Do away with Barnett. 90% of NSO is landed in Scotland. The Scots will tax it. England can then pay. Works for me.

Oh, sorry, you only meant Some tax raising powers....

And so it goes. On and on and on. Job done Scots back in their box.

There will be tens of thousands of Scots who had a vote in the referendum who have no vote in May. They are going to be bitterly disappointed. They are going to be angry. As this develops, god help the election aspirations of 2020 because the Scots are going to vote all right.

Cameron was clear. Things would start getting better starting Friday 19th of September.

Name me one single thing that got better. Because I can name at least half a dozen which got worse. Cameron has little to lose. England, on the other hand, has a LOT to lose if Scotland votes in 35 SNP MP's.....

For goodness sakes, it is not about Scotland winning or England losing or vice-versa, it is now about what works best for us all - every single one of us in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

When Cameron promised that things would start getting better from Friday the 19th of September he did not mean that everything would be delivered lock, stock and smoking barrel by Friday tea time. No reasonable person could have possibly expected that. What he must seriously have meant was that the process would start. It was going to take years for an independent Scotland to be up and running and working optimally - for all Scots. It is also going to take some time for Devo-max to be set up and running optimally as well.

Suff, I do not share your despondency or belief that the promises made will not be kept. The politicians in all corners of the UK have had a much needed boot up the derrière and the proles and the plebs are in no mood for fudge, certainly not those in the much maligned England. Rather than throwing toys out the cot or taking bats and balls home it is time for all of us to work together. We are often told that we get the government we deserve, well let us do that. Let us make it loud and clear to whomever we vote for that they are going to work for us and not for themselves or their vested interests.

Salmond said that the referendum had touched people who had never before shown an interest in politics, and with an 85% turnout he was right..... but not just north of the border. If those people can be kept interested, and indeed become active, the whole way politics works could be changed forever.

There is not much on TV so I have been baking shortbread (English ) and making pizzas. In between I have been following a discussion in another place......

There is a lot of anger out there and a lot of disagreement about an English Parliament, Regions etc., and how they would work. A few of them have been tinkering with an interesting scheme for the top level of the political muck heap and it goes something like this:

A sort of Senate/Government of MPs from all four countries. Members chosen by the individual parliaments in a ratio of something like 12:12:20:44, or multiples of, for NI, Wales, Scotland and England. They say that with those ratios no one country could hold sway, not even England. I'll keep an eye on it and see how/if it develops.

expect to start hearing the words "Worst of all worlds" and "We were duped" soon.

I only have one thing to say about that. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. The Scots have been fooled by Westminster once within living memory. Now it's twice. You fools.

Absolutely agree. Yesterday I was gutted at the result but felt like we could probably move on. Today I am bitter. Not so much at the No voters who truly believe in the Union but at those No voters who were duped by the media, the false promises and fake politicians who pretended Scotland's interests were at heart.
I'm very bitter at the way the media peddled lies and smears during the campaign but most of my bitterness is towards the total sell out of Scotland by the Labour Party.

However, for me, there is a positive and that is that I will now be more politicised and I think many Yes voters will be the same. And I seriously hope the Labour party in Scotland will feel that effect for a long time to come.

Shaz, it is saddening to see both you and Suff so angry and bitter. The referendum is over. How and why the result came about cannot be changed. The situation as it is now has to be worked with, like it or not. The danger of Yes voters being angry and bitter, especially for those who make the decisions, is that they might be blinded to things which in the long term could be to their advantage under the new system.

There is not going to be another referendum coming along any time soon, so it is best to work on but never to forget.

Workingman wrote:A sort of Senate/Government of MPs from all four countries. Members chosen by the individual parliaments in a ratio of something like 12:12:20:44, or multiples of, for NI, Wales, Scotland and England. They say that with those ratios no one country could hold sway, not even England. I'll keep an eye on it and see how/if it develops.

I think this is a plausible start. Now, are they saying that this Senate sits "over" four elected "Country" Assemblies or not? Is this Senate separately elected or are the "88" co-opted from the four Assemblies? And what powers do the Senate and the Assemblies each wield?

I've seen a similar suggestion where a proposed Senate effectively replaces the House of Lords. No bad thing, IMO.

One thing though - we are going to have to address this wretched first past the post voting system. It's outdated and does not deliver fairness. If your proposed Senate contains members on the basis of a "ratio", then I would like to see the constitutions of all the elected bodies decided by "ratio". The trick, of course, is defining what you mean by "ratio" .....