At least the German finance minister is consistent

[Suff]

He tells Osborne, basically, you can have change when Germany want's it, not when the UK want's it.... (more in the FT but it's subscription, I use the free articles one)

It's a pity we don't have a video of Cameron telling an audience that he believes that we should "Give the finger to Germany and exit the EU". Sorry was that Farage???

Honestly this is our relationship with the EU. About the same as Greece with the opposite money flow. If we want something then we can go whistle. If they want something and we don't agree then there is anger and threats and "lots of noise" until we threaten to switch off the money taps. Witness Cameron's veto of the transaction tax followed by Osborne's simple statement that it made no sense for the UK to contribute to any more PIIGS bail out's....

The best thing about this, for me, is that the UK is going to get a prime time, in the news, blow by blow rendition of the UK asking "Can I have a little more please sir" followed by the explosion of disbelief and being shown the door if we don't comply...

That, more than anything, is what I want the population of the UK to see. That the only thing the UK does which matters to the EU is pay in funds. Everything else is unimportant.

Should be a good story anyway. If I recall Cameron correctly his statement was simple.

1. We will have a referendum on leaving
2. If I get my concessions I will ask you to vote to stay
3. If I don't get my concessions I will ask you to leave

I wonder how badly Cameron will be trapped with that statement? It was OK at the height of the crisis where a possible Brexit would have been a financial disaster to the Eurozone who were fumbling to fix a catastrophic mess of government debt which threatened to bring the whole edifice down.

Now, today, as with Greece and the "go have a referendum if you want one, you might want to leave the Euro", the feelings are running high about the UK. We didn't bow down and pay homage when they wanted to strip London of money to help fund their rescue. We "sabotaged" the whole Euro project. We're the Antichrist and we want "More".

It's going to be an interesting journey. I just hope the people of the UK hang in there and keep watching. The story is going to reveal the lie the UK government has been telling it's people for 30 years.

Another day another story...

[Workingman]

Oh, for goodness sakes!

Cameron is going to have his referendum, whenever, and then fight for the UK to stay in the EU. He will be supported in that by Labour, LibDems, The Greens, SNP, big business and Uncle Tom Cobley... The only "out" party will be UKIP with a few other right wing Conservative nutters. EU myths and legends will be blown apart.

Once we are voted in, again, it will be up to our politicians to play their part and make it work, which is what they should have been doing since 1975.

[Suff]

We won't engage because we don't belong. If Cameron campaigns for in without the concessions then it will tear the Tory party apart.

This is not 1975, we have facebook, twitter and zillions of websites. Demonstrated by the SNP cleanup in the last election.

Interesting times ahead. The reason none of the parties wanted a referendum is that they don't feel they can control it.

It is 100% sure nobody from the EU is going to be riding in at the 11th hour to promise power and riches if we stay!

[Workingman]

Why don't we belong? We wanted in from the early days, we kept on trying to get in, it was only De Gaulle who kept us out. What is it that now makes us so special?

And who are "we" anyway? Not the Scots, they desperately want to break one union and jump under the security blanket of another. Not the Welsh, more security blankets. Not many in NI, they know it cannot go it alone. That leaves us pesky English. We, apparently, are the ones who want out, yet there is not a shred of evidence that is the case.

This in/out EU thing has become ridiculous. The main call is from some of the whingers: "I didn't get a vote" cry, cry. No, you didn't, you were either too young or not born, it happens, get over it. What happens if we vote to leave? Will these whingers be happy to have another referendum in a generation's time on the grounds that some people did not get to vote?

I want this referendum to go ahead. I would prefer it sooner rather than later, but I want all the cards on the table and equal coverage for both sets of views. I want every statement made to be challenged and not simply accepted as true. I want open debate after debate after debate.

What I do not want is for the place to tear itself apart. If I see that happening I will opt out.

[medsec222]

I got a vote Frank, and I voted to join. But what we voted for is entirely different now from then. We were told it was a trading agreement, I am not totally sure, but I think it was between five countries. Nothing was said at the time about a political union and that we would be ruled from Brussels. Those that voted at the time were certainly 'conned' by Ted Heath, who never spelled out the true agenda. I want my say now, and I will be voting No, but if the majority want to stay in I have no quarrel with that. I hope that all the issues are spelled out clearly for full and detailed discussion and once the country has voted, that should be an end to it.

[Workingman]

Meds, I agree that it is different now from what it was, but I do not feel conned. For me it evolved and we didn't, we stood still.

You will have seen my rants about the UK sulking and sucking its thumb from the word go instead of getting stuck in, so I'll say no more about that.

I am a supporter of the EU, but also not uncritical of it. What worries me about the referendum comes down to what I read on comments pages of media websites whenever the subject is brought up. The vitriol and threats thrown at the likes of me is as bad as that of the Scottish referendum. There are downright lies peddled as facts and, worst of all, those slinging the mud do not seem to know how the EU works. There is a lot of group-think along the lines of 'My mate Baz thinks it's a pile of 5hit, and so do I, and so must you'.

[Suff]

Need some time to reply to this and I have no time right now. Perhaps tomorrow night or Monday.

[Suff]

Let me try and order my thoughts on this.

First, we wanted in.

Let's try and analyse that. The original Treaty of Rome created a common market for the convenient and easy flow of goods and resources between the signatory countries. Thus, supposedly, locking each country into a mould where it could grow but only if all the others around it grew as well. The founders were not stupid, they knew that if the economic interests of one country would be destroyed by war with any of the other countries, then there would be little or no benefit in them starting any aggression. Also as the leaders of each country were constantly talking to the others and as Brussels was a clearing house of information which could be passed directly without need of ambassadors etc, tensions could be eased and controlled.

Great. So we wanted in. They did not. Why? Britain was the dominant economy by the largest margin. Britain would have automatically had to have taken the prime place in all negotiations as the largest economy and the most powerful nation. The empire was coming unglued and we desperately needed to be in on the ground floor. Like all Ponzi Schemes, the winners are always the founders.

So they kept us out.

So where are we different?

Well for starters, they only let us in when our economy had collapsed to the point that we would no longer be the dominant economy
When we did join, the remnants of the Empire trade was blocked, causing even more pain to an economy being driven off the cliff by the Unions.

So we joined. So it hurt. So Labour won an election on an OUT vote, gave the referendum and campaigned massively for IN.

Right. So that's the scene set. We've had our say and we voted to stay in an economic union Called the European Economic Community. Note it is an Economic Community.

In the 1980's it was quite clear that the EEC was all take and no give. Maggie forced the issue and got our rebate. They were not going to give it but she simply left them with the same choice the EU are now giving Greece. Namely that the EEC was out of money and needed UK funds to operate. She cut off the funds and told them to come back and discuss it when they wanted to talk rebate.

This is NOT the EU way. The EU way is to say Yes first, accept the punishing cost and then go with the begging bowl to France and Germany to see if we can get a few crumbs if they wouldn't mind. Also, during that time, you should make alliances with smaller countries, gather incriminating information on people who can't stand scrutiny and withhold small sums of money wherever you can. Basically be a sneaking snivelling creep until they can't stand your annoyance any more and give you what you want.

Any of this sounding like the UK psyche? If we stay in it will be. Germany and France have absolutely NO intention of giving any power sharing to the UK. NONE.

Note, again, after 13 years of Labour sneaking and snivelling; when Cameron veto's the transaction tax the indignation is immediate and absolute. That sneaking, snivelling country can get OFF the ECB board, can get OUT of all places it does not have an absolute right to be and can Give The Rebate Back.

Then Osborne says. "Well I don't think it makes sense for the UK to contribute to any more PIIGS bailouts". Suddenly the chair on the ECB board is sacrosanct, the UK will retain all it's rights and privileges and maybe even more.

This is not the action of a subservient UK who knows their place, this is an action of a UK who does not belong, a master not a slave. Why is it so important to know this? Because the next time a Labour government gets in nothing will be forgotten, REVENGE will be taken and the UK will pay 100 times for what it denied the EU under the Conservatives.

Let's face it, when it comes to the EU, nobody listens to the UK. If the UK wants something and it is not something at least 50% of the rest of them want, they will provide a united front in opposition to the UK. OK we can usually bulldozer our way through it if we really want or need to, but they will do nothing we want.

However when they want something. Like presenting a resolution to the UN on people trafficking from Africa. Yes then it is a "British" paper, presented by the "British" and "backed" by the EU.

Need to take a breath now, I'm likely to throw up my Tea I've just eaten....

If you look at transport infrastructure, housing infrastructure, business infrastructure, you see that the UK led for the first 40 years after the war. The UK, still leading as it has for hundreds of years, created complete new designs for our infrastructures based on safety and flexibility. Leaving the UK with one of the strongest in Electrical, water and waste management systems in the world.

So what does the EU do? You would think that they would be glad that we have updated our out of date infrastructure and shown them the way. You would think that they would take our designs and work with us to make them safer and more efficient and then make it a template for the EU as a whole.

And you'd be damned WRONG. They will do ANYTHING and I do mean any damned stupid thing they can think of to avoid following UK standards. Let's take electrical. The UK Ring Main system is fantastic in it's simplicity and efficiency. BUT it requires one thing and one thing only. All connections to the sockets must be fused. Otherwise the 50 amps going through the ring main would cause the appliance to short and burn out causing a huge fire risk. So we fused the plugs and made our systems safe.

In Europe? Dear me no. They don't want to fuse their plugs. They are running on a WW2 German infrastructure with a nod to a slight difference in France and Belgium. Fuse the plugs? What for? So when you see the 18 socket bar in the shops in France or Germany, you can be damned sure that the 10amp cable connected to it can pull the full 20 amp power from the wall on the circuit.

So do they realise how dangerous these things are? Not a bit of it. They start to create new wiring designs. No more than 5 sockets on a spur. Great that's a UK standard anyway. OK but you can only have spurs. 5 socket spurs maen they can run it on a 16 amp trip. So it's "safer". Then they make it an EU directive and force the UK to stop putting ring mains into UK homes.

All to avoid creating new plugs with a fuse in them.

Oh and in the process tripling the amount of copper put in a home and causing huge problems for everyone.

But, hey, that's the EU. If they can do 1 sensible thing a day or 100 stupid things a day, then if the 1 sensible thing is UK based, they'll do the 100 stupid things. Every time. Without fail.

So, no, I don't believe we belong.

Outside our home in France is a Sewer system. It was put in the town shortly before we bought in 2002.

Is our house connected to it?
No
Where is our house connected?
To the street drains which empty into the river going through the town.
When will the houses become connected? After 2006, any house sold has to be connected before the new owner takes ownership. Yep, that means that so long as the house is not sold and remains in the family, it could be rented out for the next 50 years dumping sewage into the river....

This is the EU.

Sound like we belong.

Bathrooms. Ever travelled in Europe. Ever wondered at the light switches inside the bathroom wall? Completely forbidden in the UK. Ever looked for the standard mains socket without a security cut off. Remember UK bathrooms are only allowed a razor socket which cuts off if you short it to earth. What do European bathrooms have? They have a standard mains socket with no security on it at all. The only stipulation? It has to be a meter from water. My comment? Nothing has a cable?

Sound like we belong?

This is before we start talking about politics. Cradle to grave Socialism. Union led societies. High personal taxation to support high benefits. ID cards. Government access to banking records and transactions. Banking where they limit your out of country withdrawals to €300 PER WEEK.

And these are just the things which come to mind.

Oh and another classic. NATO pays to upgrade all major bridges in Germany to 100 Tonnes so that we can get our tanks around without breaching their road laws. Then Germany creates new 44Tonne trucks and forces through a directive that they be allowed in all the EU, increasing German truck sales and destroying UK trunk roads and town roads....

Agh, I could go on for hours, days and still not exhaust myself. Just come over here and live for a decade in a totally in country mode. Talk to people, listen to their expectations and what they think is normal. Buy a property and do work in it, find out about the weird and wonderful ways they have of doing things. Like no property surveys in France, no follow up for major work inside the house.... It's left up to the utility companies before they connect you up. Who simply don't check if it's already connected. They upgraded our house to a 60 amp feed when almost all of the cabling could not tolerate the existing 30 amp feed.

If we stay, in 100 years the UK will not be recognisable as the UK. That is a guarantee. Funnily enough I care about that. Sadly at least 45% of the country don't so long as they can have cheap holidays in Spain and buy cheap European wine, beer and spirits...

You say we belong WM. We don't.

Next, whinging about our referendum.

Well if it was still the EEC you could say that.

BUT.

Since we signed the Treaty of Rome, we have had foisted on us.

The Maastricht treaty. This is a treaty which changed the EEC from an economic union to a political union. It changed the EEC from a collection of Nation States collaborating for good trade to a Country called the EU with member states subservient to the rule of the institutions of the EU. It also created the Euro and the mechanisms for full political union and banking union....

No vote. Maggie vetoed it and Major (nevertobesufficientlydamned), weaselled on us and signed it without any intention of giving us a referendum. OK he got us our exemption to the Euro, the HRA and the working time directive, but he also said he was going to force us into the Euro without a vote....

Then Blair gave away the HRA and the working time directive. Damaging the UK badly.

No Vote.

Then we had the Constitution. That document which finally ratified what the Maastricht treaty had started and made the EU a formal country with EU citizens who were EU citizens first and "residents" of member states second.

No vote. In fact Blair did say he'd give us a vote but backed out of it as he said it was "dead" but he should have given us a vote because then it would have made the Lisbon Treaty impossible to accept.

Tell me, which other functioning democracies would bring in a Constitution without a vote, except those in the EU? But the UK was going to go for it against all our principles. The UK is already infected with the EU disease.

The Lisbon Treaty. Let's call this the Constitution "Lite" because it has almost all of the elements of the Constitution except for Taxation, Citizenship and EU Army.

No Vote. In fact Brown tried to arrive so late that the press were gone. He knew he would get a massive NO vote for a bodged and sneaked constitution. We'd all seen the governments who did not have a referendum requirement for any changes to their constitution (Ireland), just roll over and accept it. Tidying up treaty my Arse, I've read it and it is a fundamental and basic transfer of almost all powers to the EU.....

So why would the people whinge or complain. They've been well represented haven't they. I mean they got to vote, ONCE, on membership of an economic union which was supposed to be about trade barriers and Europe wide cooperation.

What reasonable person could possibly call for a referendum to rethink the small almost infinitesimal tweaks of:

The Maastricht Treaty
The Lisbon Treaty

I mean, no change at all really.....

Sorry my irritation and sarcasm got the better of me. Anybody who argues that we need not have a referendum to stay in the country called the European Union, to give up our citizenship, nationality and currency; is simply not telling you the truth.... They are telling you to be a good model EU citizen. Or in other words don't ask Why!!!! There was another state like that. It died in 1991.