Social Security

[Suff]

And, of course, Vic, the Portugese men are such souls of discretion, don't like a good fight and won't use knives either??? Just the same as the Swede's really......

WM, it was not I that was comparing apples with oranges. I pointed out the basic differences with the minimum wage in Spain and in the UK. I, for one, am extremely aware of the differences in earning power, price of property and letting and the actual cost of living for food and clothes etc. The French are much, much poorer than the UK in this respect. Yes houses may be much cheaper, but wages are a lot lower, second hand cars can be 3 times the price and food, generally now, for us, is cheaper in the UK. The food side is particularly irksome as the numbers of people doing their basic grocery shopping on Mouse2House is growing exponentially. UK supermarket deals mean they can cut tens to hundreds of pounds off their monthly shopping bill even when you factor in the transport costs.

So I'm also hyper aware of the issues with incomers with disproportionate levels of money who are strange to the environment.

[continuation pressed enter whilst moving the laptop]

It is the EU who is comparing apples with oranges. They demand harmonisation of support for immigrants (illegal or otherwise), regardless of the economy, cost of living or poverty of the local population.

The EU is like a blind giant, stamping its feet around and crushing everyone beneath it. Then they stand up on their high horse and say "but this tension is racist". Having caused the tension in the first place by their complete lack of understanding of the social situation which they are interfering with. Which, to my mind, it totally racist.

Right now those idiots in the EU are simply covering the EU in unprotected gunpowder. At some point someone is going to throw a match and it won't be the easy going, thoroughly cowed, northern states.

[Workingman]

Suff, I was not pointing the finger at anyone, but at the generalisation of things.

The EU demand for harmonisation of support for immigrants is about how they are welcomed and processed. Some countries prefer closed reception centres, others are happy with dedicated refugee housing in the towns and cities and others trust them to be in the community. The harmonisation is not fiscal in nature.

Countries are allowed to set their own levels of benefits and nobody is calling for a flat rate across the EU set at those of, say, Germany or Romania. The only call is that countries do not discriminate unfairly between foreign nationals (duly processed) and locals, though different rules can apply.

What we have are statements that all migrants (legals and illegals) can get 'this, that and the other' and it is all free. Well now, tell someone whose income at home was $200 per month, or less, and that they can get £36 per week and it sounds like a King's ransome. Throw in the fact that they will get a semi in a leafy suburb and it is job done. Will they come? You bet. The odd thing is that these false tales are put out by Eurosceptics to gain support for their arguments to get us out of the EU. They are the ones who make out that the streets are paved with 'relative' gold, which is only true for the few.

The rest, most of them, end up in the black economy. They end up sleeping rough or in X to a room tenements or in 'accommodation' provided by their employers. These employers pay a pittance and then take a lot back in service charges. Many of these migrants end up in the criminal underworld in order to survive. Those are the messages we should be sending out loud and clear - the reality.

[Suff]

However the EU has harmonised it's support to countries on a per head basis. Which they then require the countries to spend on the migrants and not on their own people.

However you cut it, unless they are taken into the northern, western, EU countries, that money is going to destabilise the relationship with the locals...

The EU says that they can't treat the immigrants differently to the locals, but the very presence of the EU money does that. It gives More to the immigrants and the locals are left feeling aggrieved...

[Workingman]

The only fund doing anything like that is the Asylum, Migration and Integration Fund (AMIF) costing €3.2 over seven years - €450 million per year across all 28 states. Hardly a destabilising amount, and none of it goes to any migrant.

Most of it goes on management of the migrant flows, some goes on integration and some goes on the return of failed applicants. Its effect on local economies, if any, is negligible.

It does not affect any payments made to migrants, nor the level at which they are set. Those are still down to the separate countries within the EU.

[Suff]

The AMIF had to incorporate the features of the Refugee Fund which provides for, amongst other things...

supports resettlement programmes and actions related to the integration of persons whose stay is of a lasting and stable nature

And three other funds. The goals of those four funds have not changed, so, whatever the current AMIF documentation says, it is doing what the prior funds were doing.

It would be worthwhile reading this document which lays it out in some detail. Including the specific directives which cover such things as

The Reception Conditions Directive (RCD) sets common standards of living conditions for asylum‐seekers (e.g. access to food, housing and healthcare).

Which may, in many cases, be of a much higher standard than that accorded to the locals. In Turkey they get tents. In the EU they get the RCD. No brainer really isn't it?

The 4 old funds were valued at €4bn. The two funds which replaced them are valued at 5.9bn. Almost a 50% increase. These funds have a disproportionate affect in areas which are already suffering deprivation. This leads to unrest.

It was also an interesting revelation about the Lisbon Treaty amendments which

Under Title V of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU (TFEU) on freedom, security and justice, an area in which the Lisbon Treaty introduced several changes, Article 67(2) TFEU sets the EU's competence in establishing a common policy on asylum, immigration and external border control, based on solidarity between MS and fairness to non‐EU nationals. Article 80 TFEU says that the implementation of this EU policy is governed by the principle of fair sharing of responsibilities and its financial implications between MS.

In other words all the signatories of the Lisbon Treaty signed away to the right for the EU to mandate that we take refugees. (BTW MS means Member States for those who, like me, had to work it out)....

So here is the short version.

The EU has a signed document saying that they can control and manage immigration flows from abroad and parcel said immigrants out amongst the member states. No wonder Donald Tusk is getting irritated. The only reason nobody is going hammer and tongs at the UK, right now, is that we have an EU in-out referendum some time between now and 2017.

That means that the lies have already begun in the race to keep the UK in the EU. Before the first official document has been cast for us to realise how "lucky" we are to be in the EU.....

You know, this is how civil wars start. I wonder how the EU idiots forgot that?

[Workingman]

We are kind of conflating different things, here.

The protocols we are talking about were/are attempts at creating intra-EU legal frameworks for the management of refugees and asylum seekers. Some of them are now defunct and superceded. They were intended to operate at state level and although working, per capita, that is not surprising. Germany takes hundreds of thousands, Romania takes a few hundred.

Vic's OP was about financial benefits at local level, and they are largely based on falsehoods. Not by Vic, you understand, but by the rumour mills operating throughout the EU. It is of note that asylum seekers and genuine refugees are not the same as 'migrants' and their illegal equivalents, we should not forget that.

The facts are that the EU and its member states, have been useless at all levels and have created a crisis from which there is, apparently, no escape in the foreseeable future.

A quick check tonight showed me that within the next ten days night time temperatures will drop below freezing in Croatia, Slovenia and Austria. I will be looking out to see how our leaders deal with that problem.

[Suff]

5.9 billion Euro is one hell of a big business for managing immigrants.

A hell of a lot of that money will be fought over and there will be incidents of totally obscene sums of money being paid to immigrants over and above the local population.

As you say.

The facts are that the EU and its member states, have been useless at all levels and have created a crisis from which there is, apparently, no escape in the foreseeable future.

I could not agree more.

[victor]

22.600 unemployed in Madeira = 18 % of the active population
1/3 of the local people living below the poverty line
20.000 families in Madeira have no money to pay for the water, electricity, gas. Don't have money to eat every day.

[Aggers]

22.600 unemployed in Madeira = 18 % of the active population
1/3 of the local people living below the poverty line
20.000 families in Madeira have no money to pay for the water, electricity, gas. Don't have money to eat every day.

I'm surprised to learn that, Victor.

Wikipedia has this to say... Madeira is the second richest region of
Portugal by GDP per capita, being only surpassed by Lisbon.

[Suff]

And Britain is the wealthiest country in the EU, by GNW, by a long, long way. I'm not talking GDP but actual accumulated and retained wealth of the country. In recent decades we only dropped below France and Germany due to our 30% loss in value of the £ (thank you so much Gordon Brown).

Yet we have people below the poverty line, people who have no home and people who can't feed themselves every day.

It doesn't surprise me that Madeira has a similar problem. Extreme wealth often goes hand in hand with extreme poverty.

Note that the UK is back at #4 in the worlds wealthiest and we are catching up on Japan quite quickly. China is, of course, powering ahead. I wonder if those figures will make the EU debate????