Now it is HS3!!!

[Workingman]

... perhaps HS3 should be renamed the NPHS3 (not particularly high speed 3..)

Cruel, but bang on the money.

If Northern, or whoever is running things this hour, was allowed to upgrade the whole network everyone would get everywhere quicker. We would all benefit, not just those in Leeds and Manc if, indeed, they do benefit.

[Suff]

Well it depends how they do it.

On my line down from Paris they have the new LGV being built Paris to Bordeaux (€7.6bn estimated). The direct trains (6 per day), do it really fast. The rest of the trains interleave stations between them. So I get about 6 trains per day that service Poitiers but also go to Bordeaux. The Potiers train will be 20 to 40 minutes faster because it will only have one low speed stop off whereas, today, it goes slow speed from Tours.

If and that is a big IF, they do it properly, the other stations will get a faster service but less frequently and the main high speed routes will be exactly that, high speed. But you'll need to decide whether you want to wait 2 hours for the fast train or take the slow one that takes 10 minutes longer.....

Not taking any bets on whether it's done properly or not....

[Workingman]

The distance from Paris to Bordeaux via Tours and Poitiers is about 500km so plenty of distance to save lots of time. Even the individual sectors are long enough for time saving.

In the North here the average distance between the major cities is little more than 55km. The tracks themselves are not suitable for much higher speeds so even superfast trains would not gain much. With such short sprints the focus on time is somewhat misplaced. Passengers would much prefer comfortable and modern trains over the 30 yr-old Sprinters If a few minutes get saved it would be a bonus, but nothing to celebrate and an upgrade of the whole network would achieve that for a lot less cost than NPHS3.

[Suff]

True and I guess there is little real competition except for a car because you're not going to get a bus there any faster. For me my shortest journey to a main line rail station is 80km. Then there is a different demographic in France. If I want to take a single train from Paris CDG to Poitiers, it's €55 - €120 fist class depending on when I book it. If I want to take a plane the ONLY option is Air France and the cost is €1,000.

Of course the real need for a high speed line in the UK is London Glasgow and London Edinburgh with Stops on the way in the east and west Midlands. That, I suspect, more than anything, is driving HS3.

They're not going to create more than one line out of London any time soon. So they need to create a master route which feeds the east and west and HS3 would create the infrastructure for that. It would then be much more simple to create the logical extensions up the east and west coast (HS4 and HS5 or something like it).

The more I think about it the more I believe it's planning ahead but with their heads up rectum. It would be easier to create an east coast HS line from Euston than to do all of this and then do a good quality cross country upgrade on 3 or 4 routes across the country.

I do wonder though, now we are out of the EU aspirations for high speed pervasive rail links across the entire EU, how much of this will continue post Brexit??

[Workingman]

I read somewhere that Scotland, Glasgow and Edinburgh, and the North East, Newcastle and Sunderland, were going to get HS2-, with HS2 trains and carriages running on the existing West Coast and East Coast main lines once past Manc and Leeds.

I cannot for the life of me fathom the logic behind that. These super expensive trains will not be able to go any faster than current trains due to track limits. The idea is a bit of an insult to the Scots and Geordies/Mackems IMHO.

[Suff]

Not only the tracks and rails. Trains which travel at these high speeds have to have automated signalling and control systems. If the system goes down they're limited in speed.

The only advantage being that when you hit HS2 tracks, on the way to London, you make HS2 time from then on without having to change train. This is, of course, what France does today. There are only so many LGV. For instance, for me, my LGV runs out at Tours and then it's slower to Poitiers. For anyone running to Bordeaux they run out at Tours too until the new LGV goes in this year.

The longest high speed run they have is from Paris through Lyon and down to Avignon and Marseille.. They also have a new top speed line into Strasbourg now.

You can see the lines with the speeds on this map



It shows that apart from the Red lines the UK is not really that far separated from the rest of Europe and, in fact, our network at it's current high speed is more comprehensive and integrated than many of the other countries, given the distances and sheer size of our network compared to many others.

What that map does show is that there is more need for HS3 first than there is for HS2 right now. But it's to London so we'll see HS2 first.

[Workingman]

Good map: thanks. There might be more need for HS3 than HS2, but not in its present form.

A dedicated triangle between Sheffield, Manchester and Leeds, all of which are on HS2, with spurs out to Hull and Liverpool, would be a better option. It would give the country, and by that I mean the England, its only worthwhile coast-to-coast railway between major ports and open Hull and Liverpool to much needed regeneration.

[Suff]

The map does make that very clear.

Sorry I forgot to say I got it from the French Wikipedia site on Ligne Grand Vitesse.

Should have put the link in.

[TheOstrich]

Nationwide, there's massive rolling stock shortages. Most of these diesel and electric units aren't owned by the individual rail companies, they're leased from the likes of Porterbrook. The Porterbrooks of this world won't finance the building of new stock if they can't lease them long-term. Operating companies won't want to lease new stock long-term if they've only got short-term franchises ..... it's all part and parcel of the mess that railways have become since privatisation.

The problem with the reduction of service on the Chase Line that Jo pointed out is down to another fiasco - the line is part funded by Staffordshire County Council and part funded by Centro (West Midlands transport overlords). Staffordshire withdrew their funding thanks to the Government cuts. Centro is, I think, funded in a different way, and doesn't have such financial issues.

Suff, you might not have had such bad overcrowding if Scotrail hadn't released a batch of leased Class 170 units, which have now finished up on the South Coast! And of course Scotrail's range of services have expanded thanks to new initiatives such as the Borders line. So again, why release the 170's? Daft!

[Kaz]

Many of the express trains from Penzance to Paddington don't even stop at Gloucester, they go straight through! You have to get off at Cheltenham and come back Crazy! Some trains from here go straight to Paddington but many others only go as far as Reading, and you have to change More trains straight into London (and hence vice versa) would do wonders for Gloucester, but when it was mooted our (Tory) MP Richard Graham, blocked it I have no idea why!