I'm wondering when they will learn

[Workingman]

You show me a vile man and I'll show you a politician.

And that is where we have got to in this world of 2016!

And that's the fallacy.

They are not all 'vlie' men and women, but those at the top drown out those who really do want to serve us all.

This is what we need to change, but it has to come from us. There are many good MPs but they rarely make it to ministerial positions. Those seem to be reserved for people with connections and a desire for a political career. They are the ones 'we' need to remove.

[Suff]

True but unless voters in safe seats are willing to vote against their convictions that's never going to happen and the "establishment" is always going to parachute to safe seats.

[Workingman]

Aggers, I tend to agree.

I am all up for a good rant, but when one uses direct quotes from speeches or the written word it is good form to reference those sources. Christopher McMahon does not do that, nor does he indicate when he is paraphrasing, another no-no.

Churchill was a man of his time, his aristocratic upbringing, his experiences in life and his desire to help the country - in the terms of those times - all made him what he was.

Yes, he was a bigot, homophobe, racist, and any other 'ist' or 'phobe' you want to accuse him of in today's enlightened and inclusive PC world, but so what?

How far do we go back to find 'correct' thinking? The Pharaohs? Jesus? Socrates? Marx?

[Workingman]

.... the "establishment" is always going to parachute to safe seats.

And that might be where things could change. There is becoming increased resistance to 'parachutists' in many places.

We have had more than enough in W. and S. Yorks, probably more that the rest of the country, and we have had enough. It will not take much of a shift for them to be rejected.