Time to halt the A50 process?

[miasmum]

I was just having a joke Suff. I apologise, I appreciate these are serious threads.

I'm going back to cafe, pets and the shed

[Suff]

No MM, I was talking to WM, not to you.

I must admit that when "opinion" overtakes reality, or even possibility, then I have to take a step out and not discuss it any more. After all we are only talking about the most important moment in UK history since the commencement of WWII. It was ignored at the election as "something not to worry about" and now there is an "opinion" that we can just unilaterally change the terms of an EU treaty because we're in a mess.

Why are we in a mess? Because the "opinion" was that we had to focus on short term (5 year) UK internal issues and ignore long term EU issues which will impact this country for the lifetime of everyone over the age of 30.

Good luck with that.

[Gal]

It's called "opinion" Suff, and we are entitled to it!

Hear hear!! I rarely come in to this board, but I do know that opinion is something everyone has, but not everyone has the same one. It would be a terrible world if we did, so rather than knocking someone back whose opinion is different, maybe if we read/listened and empathised instead of shouting them down?

[Workingman]

Suff, I have read the relevant parts of the TEU and I have also read the carefully considered legal opinions of Doctors and Professors of Law, QC's and their overseas equivalents. Their opinions differ greatly from yours.

Also I cannot find any sentence or phrase stating that "any nation can trigger A50 _once_ and then follow the journey". If you would point me to those or similar words I will gladly take them on board.

The fact is that there are no *facts* regarding this matter, no reality, only opinion, because it has never been tested in court. Only when, or if, it is tested will we have the situation defined in law.

Until that happens it is perfectly reasonable and valid to ask questions and form opinions. There are shed loads of them out there and just because they do not agree with your (or my) hopes, aspirations or fears does not mean that those asking them should shut up and accept.

Rather than there being nothing to discuss, there is everything to discuss.

As for voters voting for *a mess*, that is oft the claim made when things do not go the *right* way. The fact is that *a mess* was not an option on any ballot paper. Individuals voted individually and if their combined votes ended up with *a mess* that is just hard lines.

And I reiterate once more, this is not about halting Brexit, cancelling Brexit or changing Brexit. It is simply asking if there is a way to give us time to sort ourselves out.

[Suff]

WM, whilst I can understand that you believe that this may be changed in a court of law, notably the only court with durisdiction being the ECJ, the treaty says a country may ask to exit, it gets 2 years to leave and, everyone willing, that 2 years can be extended. That "everyone willing" is a vital and critical part. That's it, no second way or third way. Ask, leave, with the only question open to interpretation being how long the "leave" takes.


The legal "opinions" say that to cancel A50 will require a change in the treaty supported by all 28 members, specifically to allow a country to withdraw. Everything else is nothing more than surmise.

Let me rephrase the voted for a mess bit. Individual voters decided that because Labour were going to "deliver Brexit", they could focus on other internal issues. So they voted for internal UK issues and now Brexit is a mess. If they had focused on Brexit and not been sidetracked by the "message" of UK domestic bliss, they most certainly would have voted differently. So people voted for our situation with the EU by ignoring Brexit. That is why I say people voted for a mess.

And I reiterate once more, this is not about halting Brexit, cancelling Brexit or changing Brexit. It is simply asking if there is a way to give us time to sort ourselves out.

OK so to discss this, we need to take two things into account.

First, what is the appetite of the EU itself (institutions, Commission, European Council, Eurpoean Parliament), to giving the UK either more time or any concessions at all.

Right first one. There is 0% appetite for any concessions and the EU is champing at the bit to get going. They only accepted the delay from April to now because of the Election. The election is over. Now we have to deliver. Most countries in the EU already operate on coalitions so they won't even understand the issue of the Tories and the DUP. Remember they won't even discuss anything beyond leaving till we sign on for open borders, EU customs area and a €100bn exit bill.

Second, what is the appetite of the countries within the EU to giving the UK concessions in time to sort stuff out.

Second one. Well some countries are sympathetic to the issue. But others are very, very, hardline. Most of the hardline countries are the older members. Most of the sympathetic countries either are our friends or are in a similar political meltdown situation.

However, it only takes One country to vote NO in the council and the time extension is off. From what I'm reading it won't be just one, it will be two or three.

So an answer to your question is, yes there is a way. But NO it is incredibly unlikely that there will be 27 countries willing to vote to give us it. It's a complete waste of time even asking.

[Kaz]

In your opinion.........

[Workingman]

Suff, once again you put forward your opinions as facts.

The legal opinions say nothing whatsoever about the need for any change to any treaty, they deal with A50 alone and as it stands. They say that once A50 is triggered it can be reversed so long as there is no withdrawal agreement signed up or the two year negotiation period has not passed. We have not even started negotiations.

The same goes for your *explanation* as to how and why people voted. Unless you know every single one of them, and their reasons for voting the way they did, all you can do is generalise, as you have done, in favour of your side of the argument.

With regards to your points, one and two, about breathing space, they do not exist. Why? Because the decision about whether to suspend or cancel A50 is (potentially, depending on a test case) out of their hands. See the legal opinions outlined above.

There are a number of issues/subjects/reasons where a minority government negotiating or deciding the long term future of the UK would have the media, press and public rightly demanding a change of leadership, a general election and a majority government before any such moves were made. People would take to the streets. It defies logic that this is not the case today and that some of you are even advocating that we go barrelling into negotiations with the weakest hand possible. What exactly is it about Brexit that is gets such dispensation?

[AliasAggers]

I don't know what others think about this matter, but I'm getting fed up with it.

I still can't see why we just can't say goodbye to the EU -" We're getting out and paying you nothing."
What could they do? Do they want another war? All this talking is a waste of time. We were tricked
into joining the EU, anyway. I'm sure that GB could exist and prosper without having anything to do
with the rest of Europe. Haven't we got anyone with the guts to do this?

[victor]

So Macron & Merkel both reported as saying "the door is open" if Britain wants to change it's mind about Brexit !!!

[jenniren]

So Macron & Merkel both reported as saying "the door is open" if Britain wants to change it's mind about Brexit !!!

Well this Brit definitely doesn't want to change my mind, I voted out and that's exactly what I meant.