Catalonia

[TheOstrich]

Interesting to see where this goes now s155 direct rule has been implemented.

I can't help but contrast the difference with the way we handled the Scottish independence referendum, mind you. Should we have charged Salmond with sedition?

[cromwell]

No, because we'd have ended up in the same mess that they have. The situations are really the same either.

Catalonia became part of the crown of Castile after a war, in 1714. Scotland joined England after the south sea bubble bankrupted Scotland. No war.

In the Spanish civil war Catalonia fought for the Republic against Franco and lost, and suffered in the aftermath.

I don't know how they are going to get themselves out of this mess; half of the Catalans don't seem to want independence, half do. The Spanish government is mad, the EU is keeping schtum, the other half of Catalonia wants independence and wants it now...

Sort that out!

[Suff]

No the situations are completely different for one other, extremely glaring, difference.

The UK parliament gave permission for the Scottish devolved parliament to have an election, on the basis that Democracy is always the best way to approach things in the situation. Salmond had won an overall majority of the Scottish parliament in a Proportional Representation election, something virtually unheard of and giving the SNP ultimate legitimacy. Then the SNP, from their position of Governance of Scotland, announced their intention to hold an independence referendum on the basis that this was a manifesto pledge and that the voters had given them that legitimacy.

Cameron and the UK government, decided that the way to deal with this was to legitimise the referendum in the UK parliament then campaign heavily for Scotland to remain. Thus upholding the principles of Democracy we champion so strongly around the world.

Spain has done everything wrong, from the UK position and the Catalan parliament has done everything right. The Catalan separatists won a majority in parliament, had a vote where the electorate who voted did so overwhelmingly, then, after a vote to leave, they then held another vote in parliament to secede.

The Spanish Government? So far it has used the courts like a battering ram and the police like Stormtroopers, but, and here is the important point, the Police were used to break up a peaceful democratic vote.

It is interesting how short political memories are. Catalonia has done nothing other than Bosnia did in the aftermath of the death of Tito. Spain is acting like Serbia. I wonder when that will be remembered.

In the past decade the promotion of "Democracy on tour" has caused war and strife throughout the Middle East and North Africa with the Western democracies supporting the rebels; who are usurping the status quo. All in the name of Democracy. Yet when democracy emerges in it's own back yard, many elements of the Democratic movement find it hard to live with.

The EU has struck a conflicted note. "We stand with you Spain, but don't be seen to be the bad boy". Germany, a federal state, has sided with the Spanish Government, the US ditto. What I find most interesting is that the strongest democracies in the world, the UK and Scandinavia (I don't count the US in this, they trumpet their democratic credentials but act in a very different matter), have been remarkably silent.

This won't end well. The Catalans are quietly determined. They have the support of more than half the population and the Spanish government, now the surface has been scratched, is beginning to show its true colours.

I have been watching this with great focus over the last few weeks, knowing that it would eventually come to this state.

Watch this space.

[Workingman]

Wasn't Catalonia a part of the Kingdom of Aragon and located not just in Spain but also over the border of what is now France, similar to the Basque region?

It might have its own culture and language but it was never a "country" in today's terms. It is more a "romantic notion" of a country. If Yorkshire and Northumberland joined forces and demanded to become independent Brigantia (land of the Brigantes) as the Romans knew us, we would be laughed out of the house, and rightly so.

It is a sticky problem, no doubt about that. I am with the Spanish on this but I am not sure that they are handling it in the right way. An illegal referendum (of a minority) whatever the result is still illegal. Declaring "independence" based on such a referendum is also illegal. Then comes the thorny issue of international recognition. Catalonia would join the select club of non-UN members along with Kosovo, the Vatican, Palestine and Taiwan.

A better option might have been for both sides to sit down with a nice bottle of Jerez (Andalucia - neither Madrid nor Barcelona) and have a good long chat.

[Suff]

Wasn't Catalonia a part of the Kingdom of Aragon and located not just in Spain but also over the border of what is now France, similar to the Basque region?

Well if we follow that logic the UK and almost all the rest of the EU belongs to Rome....

Actually the history of Catalonia is much more tangled than that with the County being pretty much autonomous within the Aragon Kingdom and with its freedoms cancelled by the rise of Castile as the controlling force in Spain.

What interests me most about this is the following statement:

in 1978 Catalonia voted overwhelmingly for the new democratic Spanish constitution that recognised Catalonia's autonomy and language.

As I see it Austerity has been abusing that faith.

A constitution is not a suicide pact, borders are not drawn and then never to move. Not in a "supposedly" Democratic world where people have self determination. If it were true that people actually have self determination, then the actions of the Spanish government could never happen. Because the Catalan people would vote to secede and the Spanish government would re-write the constitution to allow them to go.

As we have seen with Brexit. Once the "so called" democratic powers get their hands on you, they never want to let go. Catalan produces more to GDP than it receives. Therefore Spain will never let it go, purely on financial grounds. However on grounds of power and control?? Hotel California!

If we had leaders of vison in the EU, the EU statement would be that Catalonia would receive its democratic support and would be received directly back into the EU, thus negating all but the financial aspect of the impact to Spain. However those leaders are locked in a dangerous game of lies, trying to strip power from the EU states whilst playing up their "member state" powers. Doing the dance with Catalonia and winding up back in the status quo would clearly articulate the lie that the EU is made up of sovereign states bound by a treaty.

So the EU tells a different lie, about their democratic support for Spain who is not being democratic but autocratic; to hide a much bigger lie.

I like Tom Clancy's vision on International politics. "Two countries screwing each other".

[Workingman]

Well if we're going to turn the clock back...... aren't we all Africans?

All I was pointing out is that Catalonia has never been a "country" as the definition is applied and recognised today.

In September the ruling party (not the parliament) in Catalonia decreed that there would be an independence referendum on 1 October. The Spanish governement asked its supreme court to adjudicate and the ref was declared illegal. The same question was asked of the Catalan court and it too declared it illegal. Governments around the world also came to the same conclusion.

When the ref was held the result was 90%+ in favour of independence, but the turnout was only 43%. The impression given is that nearly ALL Catalans want independence when the truth is that over 60% do not or do not care. When the vote to implement the result was held in the catalan parliament all opposition parties boycotted and the vote was passed 70 -10. Had the whole parliament voted the majority would be 52% (seen that number before) and not enough to change constitutional law. The recent declaration is described as "unilateral" and against the Spanish constiutution... the one the Catalans signed up to.

As I understand things nowhere has officially recognised Catalonia as an independent state though a few basket cases, N Korea, Venezuala for example, have given moral support. Everywhere in Europe, including the UK, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland, have refused to recognise it.

The danger for a UDI Catalonia is that it will not be recognised by any major state or International instution such as the UN. God help it if Spain ever asks for them and if sanctions are ever enforced... see Rhodesia for detail's.

[Kaz]

I agree with you Suff, on this, the Spanish government have been incredibly high-handed, brutal in fact

[Workingman]

I also agree, but what can Spain do?

The Catalans have illegally and unilaterally acted against the agreed constitution of Spain and its autonomous regions, which they signed up to. Spain is being heavy-handed, yes, but it has been pushed into that position by the actions of the minority Catalan "independence" movement.

This might not work out well, but it is not Spain to blame, that is wholly down to the minority Catalan separatists.

[Suff]

Thus goes the mantra of every despot that has ever been. "They Illegally".

A constitution is not a suicide pact. It is a collective consensus of the way in which a county, group of countries or group of states or counties, will coexist and interact.

Once the constitution has failed in its primary aim, it should be modified or it should cease to apply. The US constitution has 15 amendments, all because the framers of the constitution could not foresee the way in which the US would evolve after it emerged from colony status.

Even then the "great democratic experiment", when faced with "illegal and unilateral secession", declared war on those states which had seceded and killed more than half a million Americans. More than all the other wars combined, prior to Vietnam.

India seceded illegally. Israel took Palestine Illegally, Bangladesh Illegally seceded from Pakistan, Northern Cyprus illegally seceded from Cuyprus. The list goes on and on and on and let us not forget Bosnia or Kosovo. Both of whom illegally seceded.

This is democratic and totally legal based on UN statutes of self determination. Catalonia was taken by War. Should it approach the decolonisation commission in the UN, the UN would be very hard put to refuse to talk to it. Putting Spain in an even worse light.

When Franco died everyone in Spain recognised that the best way to avoid yet another civil war was to stand together and make the best of it. That does not mean that every party to the constitution should be bound to it for all time. Not in a democracy. The very fact that Catalonia needed to sign the constitution means that it is and was a separate legal entity with laws, language and courts. That, in reality, is about all it really needs to state its case on the world stage.

So far Catalonia has done everything exactly right and Spain has done everything exactly wrong. If the Catalans want to be independent, then they should vote, convincingly, for the same party and government but with a stronger mandate, come the December elections. Then there should be another Independence vote, where the Catalans should call on the international inspectors to adjudicate, based on a petition to the UN for decolonisation. That should sufficiently put the Spanish government on the back foot to force them to campaign for unity in an election blessed by Madrid, rather than try to smash their way into polling stations to disrupt a peaceful vote.

Otherwise the Spanish government is saying that the only legal vote is the vote that they sanction and that is never going to fly, lest we call Spain the United Spanish Socialist Republic.

[Workingman]

When greater legal minds with expertise of the law than we have sit in the Spanish and Catalonian courts and declare the holding of an independence referendum illegal then I think I will go with them. When the UN, other NGOs and countries around the world claim that Spain is right and that the declaration of independence is unilateral in nature and will not be supported I also think they might have a point.

The saddest thing in all of this is the brutish way Spain behaved when that illegal referendum was held - it was beyond the pale. The vote could have been allowed to go ahead but for Spain to then announce the result as null and void, as per the adjudications of the Spanish and Catalonian courts. The two sides might then have had the chance to sit down and let a bit of diplomacy take place.

Today has seen a huge rally in Barcelona by those against independence and a couple of polls of Catalan voters in El Pais show 52% - 43% in favour of the dissolution of the regional parliament and the holding of new elections. The other says 55% - 41% of Catalans opposed the declaration of independence. It is all a bit of a mess, but at least the noises coming out of Madrid have been toned a little. Now has to be the time for cool heads...