What constitutes sexual harassment?

[Workingman]

Following the Weinstein case it seems to be topic of the month with new revelations every hour on the hour, and I am confused. Is sexual harassment the same as sexual abuse? If not where it the dividing line? The way that some of these stories are told it would appear that there is huge overlap between the two where the same "incident" is harassment for one yet abuse for another. And how low, or high, has the bar been set?

I am not for one moment suggesting that reports should be brushed aside: far from it. They should be taken seriously and with the utmost confidentiality, but as things stand there does not appear to be any clear definition or consistency with what is what.

One thing appears to be fairly common and that is that it is women complaining about men.... to men.

[cromwell]

It is difficult to define because there are so many different things it could be.
Constantly making remarks to a woman about her nice this and that after the woman makes it plain that she doesn't want to hear this.
Laying hands on a lady, ditto.
Even repeatedly staring at her in a certain manner would be, especially when it is obviously making her uncomfortable.
Constantly asking a lady out when you have been politely but firmly refused.
Usually but not always a repeated and sexually charged type of behaviour that discomfits the woman it is aimed at.

[TheOstrich]

Oh dear! I'll bite ....

If you use basic definitions, "harassment" is badgering and "abuse" is physical. If a guy makes verbal advances, and is rebuffed, but then persists in his attention, then that is harassment. Abuse, in my book anyway, is a whole different ball-game.

Here's the contentious bit ..... whether or not, in this appallingly new liberal age, asking your secretary to buy a sex toy as a gift for the missus in itself constitutes harassment, the answer I think is probably no. After all, 40 years ago, in a more repressive era, you might have asked your secretary to buy a bunch of flowers for the lady. That wasn't harassment then; I'm merely updating the principal for modern mores. I'm sure some of you good folk may well disagree with that, but I'd just say that's the world we live in today. Society is sexualised, the genie is out of the bottle, and good luck trying to put it back in.

The bar of public behaviour - and sex is only one aspect of it - has already been set low; just look around you. Whether or not you'll ever get it raised to what you might consider to be an acceptable level, I doubt very much.

[Kaz]

I do think the lines are getting very blurred lately. Most women have had to brush off the odd hand on the knee, or inappropriate remark or pass. They ask, you refuse, no harm done - it's a game that's as old as time. You learn to handle it.

Lumping in this kind of thing with serious stuff such as physical assault, or implying that you might lose your job if you don't 'play nicely' is a mistake, as I think it downplays the seriousness of the latter

I do disagree with you Ossie, on the sex toy incident, as I think a young woman might well feel intimidated by such a request, even in this day and age. It has undertones of a sleazy powerplay in my opinion. Totally out of order in the workplace.

[Suff]

I completely agree that some men have been getting away with lecherous behaviour for decades and the whole system was tilted against women rather than being a level playing field. There was a time when fending off groping was an occupational hazard and I always felt it was the most sleazy and offensive behaviour.

Personally I'm not the touching kind so I watch those, who seem to be unable to have a conversation with a pretty woman without putting their hands on them somewhere or other, with, perhaps not incredulity, but with a certain amount of disdain. Women either like to be touched by those they know or they do not and they are usually not backwards about making it plain.

I live in France where friends shake hands (men), or kiss cheeks (Women and men in the same family). Yet that's it, start touching arms or shoulders or, god forbid, waists or hips and you will find yourself simultaneously rebuffed and ostracised. Unless, of course, the lady in question invited the attention (highly unlikely).

I'n my dancing life we have a large circle of friends (70 or more), whom we are very friendly with. Most of the women in that circle will expect me to kiss cheek or kiss and hug when I meet them. Given that we're touching women all the time in dancing there is a bit more latitude to, perhaps, touch an arm in affection at the end of a dance with your dance partner (of the moment, Scottish Country you change partners almost every dance).

However I would never consider putting hands on those women otherwise and at least three of them Expect a big hug when they see me and one of them likes to rest her head on my chest when she gets hugged (don't assume, it is a friendly thing, not an overly friendly thing).

So setting that scene of my assumptions and tolerances. I think we are heading rapidly towards the wrong direction. Yes there are those out there who get exactly what they deserve, but there are also those who are going to get really burned by this. Because it's getting to the point of Guilty until proven innocent. Now given the attitude of the Police and society as a whole over the last 5 decades some might think that is just comeuppance. But I've never felt that this kind of backlash is warranted, no matter the provocation.

I watched two women on the Tube about 4 weeks ago. On the Jubilee line at Waterloo we stand 10 to 15 deep in queues and you really do have to move into the carriages and start imitating a sardine. So this incident happened and I was watching. One woman got on and was clearly not going to move in, she wanted more space. The second woman did what everyone else does and crowded onto the train. The first woman, still refusing to move into the space suddenly and loudly said "DON'T TOUCH ME". The Second, older, woman, said "I didn't" in a very disgruntled voice. Had this been a man it could have been a very awkward situation which might have got out of hand. Yet it was clearly the first woman, determined to force everyone else to give her more space, touchy and on edge in her own body language, who was out to cause trouble.

I worry that these situations get out of hand fast in the current environment of 0 tolerance, fed by dicks like MP's who think they can send their secretaries out to buy something intensely personal and quite embarrassing.

Just two weeks ago I was on the Central line in a jam packed carriage. I'd got myself into the back of the doors which did not open for the 5 next stops, so that I wasn't in the way. I was bent over with my head in the curve of the door. In front of me was a young, rather pretty, woman who was getting closer and closer at every stop as people crowded together and everyone but me, jammed into the doors, was being thrown about by the movement of the train. The young woman in question was facing me and about six inches away from me which is, sadly, today, inside my focal length. Had we had even one sudden lurch, I might have wound up with her lips on mine, they were at the same height with me bent over and absolutely nowhere for me to move.

Hopefully, in that situation, the young woman would have passed it off as what it was. Then again, who knows?

[cromwell]

I do disagree with you Ossie, on the sex toy incident, as I think a young woman might well feel intimidated by such a request, even in this day and age. It has undertones of a sleazy powerplay in my opinion. Totally out of order in the workplace.

I agree.

[Workingman]

From what I have read here and in other places many of us seem to have similar ideas that the problem is like the interlocking rings of the Olympics. On the left is the "larking about/flirting" ring. That overlaps with the "harassment" ring, and that overlaps with the "abuse" ring. However, for some, there is a direct link from flirting to abuse. Some examples in the media appear to be of that ilk.

Kaz mentions that lumping them all together downplays the serious assaults, and I agree. I would hate to think that we were to get to a situation where a formal written request was needed in order to request asking a workmate out for a drink.

[manxie]

At risk of being ostracised myself...... I and a few other on here are old enough to remember the 60s hippies and free love etc.

I used to frequent the music scene a lot playing myself semi pro at the time and lots of pop stars the pop groups and their helpers stagehands roadies etc often were inundated with young ladies wanting to be with the starrs etc, they would openly use their charms and assets to get what they wanted.
Were we to apply todays situations and compare them,..... the same things are happenning but back then it was accepted and the ladies knew how to get their way and had no shame in how they got there it was often the men having to fend off these ladies often they were scantily dressed, often they were well under age for what "they" were after, but allowing for the odd occasion nothing was done about it.
Men as long as I can remember used to wolf whistle after a pretty girl and a lot of the time they accepted it as a compliment on their looks / figure/ whatever, today even to whistle will get a man into trouble.
Look for an instance at the hats at the likes of Blackpool where it says give me a "kiss me quick"etc worn more by females than males but it is the same thing in essence.

These days from date number 1 a man has to be extra careful what he says or expects, we are also seeing prenuptial agreements where everything is recorded and set in stone usually in favour of the female often at the cost to the man.

Equality as was said in another post is a genie that has escaped the bottle and has run rampant of late there will be no getting it back in short of a miracle.
We all want a fair society and a level playing field but untill the rules of the game are set out before play commences it is unlikely that will happen it will certainly not please everyone in any case.

Manxie ducking behind the parapet again till the dust settles if it ever does.

Manxie xx

[Osc]

I think this whole sexual harrassment thing is now beyond ridiculous, very soon it won't be possible for a man to look sideways at a woman without a complaint being made Like Suff's dance world, our ballroom world is very kissy huggy, but nobody would ever presume to use that as an excuse to go further. I see where Manxie is coming from too, have women totally lost the knack of telling a sleazeball to eff off? Are young women now so fragile and delicate that they cannot make it obvious that advances are unwelcome? The whole world has changed and not for the better. I could head off on a rant about young women drunk out of their minds, going off with complete strangers and then crying rape, but I won't.... Feminism is now so anti men that common sense has gone completely out the window. Before anyone shouts at me, I know there are very nasty men out there, there always have been, and I thought feminism was supposed to empower women to deal with these creeps, but it doesn't seem to have.

[Kaz]

This is what I meant, about lumping everything in together. Should a grown woman be able to deal with a wandering hand or smutty remark without involving the law? Yes, absolutely! However, a grown man making sexual advances to a young girl who works for him, implying she will lose her job otherwise, deserves everything he gets! It's when power and coercion are used that it becomes very wrong.