Finally a senior government minister has done it.

[Workingman]

Ah well, time to go stick my head in the bucket.

It is obvious that all the world's ills are down to us remainers and no matter how much we try to offer alternative views, even accommodating ones, we are still the Devil's spawn. Nobody else, but nobody, has any part to play in the mess we are in but us. No doubt if the UK crashes and burns after Brexit that will be our fault as well. Leave won and we have to suck it up.

Bless.

[Suff]

WM, you know I don't believe that. If we crash and burn post Brexit it will be the responsibility of our Government and the Businesses who were determined to sacrifice the economy on the altar of the EU.

The fact that I don't believe that will happen is a slightly different thing.

However, I've just been reading the media replay of Corbyn's speech. The usual Remain and Leave echo chambers are at it and replete with the sound of their own voices. So much the same.

However there are a few very interesting commentators out there. Apparently the Tory Remainers are equivocating and, subtly, winding their necks in. There is talk that the challenge to the Repeal Act, to enshrine being a member of the customs union into the bill; looks like becoming a vote of confidence.

Strong Labour Leave campaigners are lambasting Corbyn and he's being torn apart by the very Left voters who support him; for promoting a decadent and overbearing EU, who continue to rape and pillage the 3rd world, whilst sitting behind a trade barrier.

The news hasn't been so lively for months. Corbyn is not looking so shiny now that he has come out into the sunlight and stopped hiding in the shadows on Brexit. He's looking a bit tarnished. Not to the Tories mind you, to his strongest supporters..

I vaguely recall saying something about that....

[Workingman]

So now it is the responsibility of the government, and business, and, of course, remainers,
the BBC, Uncle Tom, but not the Leavers who voted for Brexit. Nothing is down to them.

Corbyn's latest is a cracker. He only has a handful of Brexit MPs, the rest are Remain, despite what he and Momentum wants. The majority of Tories are also Remain.

Strange thing, parliament. MPs are representatives of their constituency, not its servants - they represent everyone and are allowed to hold their own judgement on what is best for them. So, it is only natural for MPs to go with their own prejudices. When May called her opportunist general election the Tory voter still voted the statsus quo, even though their MP disagreed (declared) with their position on Brexit were. If they were so galvanised by Brexit why would that be? Party over country? Why not, that is what the referendum was all about?

Another thing peddled by Brexiters is this constituency vote nonsense. There never was a constituency vote any more than there was a regional or national vote. All the votes were equal wherever they were cast,. So, take the Leeds area. We voted Remain: 194,863, Leave: 192,474 a win of 2,389 for Remain from an electorate of 5443,033 - only 341 per constituency. However, it only takes one constituency to vote overwhelmingly, either way, and the figures are meaningless.

Rachlel Reeves (Lab) a briliant MP btw, has a constituency with some of the poorest places in Leeds. She could have had a landslide in favour of Brexit, but it does not mean that her four other Lab MPs had the same. Leeds, like many places, is only lukewarm about Brexit even though the raw ref figures might seem to show otherwise.

[Suff]

So we vote to leave and those who want to stay screw it up. Deliberately. Because they are absolutely determined they will get their way no matter the vote. The country suffers, badly.

And it is all the fault of the people who democratically voted to leave.

After all, no matter what the Leavers wanted, they should have left it all alone because the majority of MP's, representatives, supposedly, of their voters, won't let them have what they have voted for.

And it's all their fault for having the absolute Gaul to actually go out and vote for some change for once.

Well, in my experience, that pretty much sums up the Remain position. They were willing to live with whatever the EU did, whatever loss of sovereignty it meant, whatever Brussels decided. All so they didn't lose their nice cosy life. No change. Nope, change is bad.

Try, just for a second, thinking about it the other way. Leavers have had to put up with all the bad things they don't want for 45 years. They have done this fairly quietly and have, eventually, had a vote and won the vote, democratically, to get the hell out of the EU.

Now the Remainers want to screw it up so badly that we'll go limping back to the EU, some day, in a much worse state than we were in before we left.

Remainers haven't had to put up with the consequences for any time at all. What is happening now? Nothing more than transition jitters. Yet we hear the vitriol, the blind determination, the implacable will to do our country down for one and only one reason. So they can block change and keep on with their nice comfy life and a good long sleep ignoring the realities of the world.

Then we're told that WE are unreasonable.

Come back in 46 years and tell us about what it's like then.

Because the vast majority of the bad stuff is going to happen because of the Remainer determination to have their way in the face of a democratic vote.

The 1970's were a lost decade as we struggled to cope with the twin loads of the Oil crises and realigning the UK to the EU. 26% inflation, massive unemployment, massive loss of industry and a near complete breakdown at the hands of the Unions.

Don't talk to me about "consequences", we've already seen them and lived through them as a result of being pulled into the EEC in 73 and the Yes vote of 75. Those consequences were far, far, worse than anything we're likely to go through in the next decade as a result of Brexit.

Yet, we, Leavers, are the bad guys. We're going to wreck the country (or at least the cheap holidays to boringdorm and shagaluf). Yep we're Satan's spawn and should be stopped at ALL costs.

The fact that the real and true cost of "ALL costs" bothers me, it would appear, is another reason why I'm so wrong.

Turning back the cover and having a look from the other side, from time to time, might be a good idea.

[Kaz]

That's a somewhat dismissive and arrogant view of people who voted remain, myself included. I voted remain as I genuinely believed it was the right thing to do. I will take no pleasure whatsoever in watching this country fall to pieces. The fallout from the decision to have this vote is huge, and nobody but an idiot would take pleasure in watching their own country suffer.

[Suff]

and nobody but an idiot would take pleasure in watching their own country suffer.

Kaz this is very emotive. I believe that this country has been suffering for 42 years since the last referendum. People who vote remain believe that it is not. People who vote remain believe that the EU is the only way the UK can go. People who vote Leave do not.

So far all the predictions of disaster, from the remain camp, have proven to be false. So far virtually all of the downsides from the vote have been driven by actions from the camp who supported remain. Then packaged and sold as the consequence of the vote itself.

People who vote remain are quite vocal in calling Leave voters idiots for damaging the country. Yet people who vote Leave and believe that Remaining has damaged the country and that remain voters want to keep damaging the country, are called arrogant and dismissive for saying that.

I could argue that the largest portion of arrogance and dismissiveness has come from the remain side of the argument. Not Leave.

Just because we haven’t actually left yet and just because the vast majority of the money and political power want to remain, does not make leaving into a disaster and it does not make it a given. Yet the Remain vote constantly lambasts the Leave vote for exactly that.

Remain can “prove” what we have. What remain cannot “prove” is that what we have is all that we can be. Only that it IS.

You know that people who lived in the USSR and queued up for food daily, fully believed that they were safer than in the West, were better off than those in the West and had a better quality of life. Even whilst fearing the KGB and other security services every single day.

They “knew” and nothing would tell them otherwise. Trying to get people in the USSR to believe they were better off on the outside was as hard as trying to get a Remain voter to believe that the UK doesn’t have the very best of life in the EU, is just as difficult. Why? Because we can’t show them the UK, outside the EU, doing better than in it.

Fact. The EU is 20% of the world market and we export less than 50% of our goods and services to them. It is worth remembering that when the press, Corbyn and everyone else says we need to be in a customs union to avoid a NI border.

I have a very different idea. We want free trade with no barriers. So, fine, lets create no border with NI. If the EU want to make a border, fine. That’s up to them.

Then we can stop obsessing about a customs union and get on with a trade deal. One that gives us what we have today. 42% access to export to their markets and we won’t block their inward trade goods. However they’ll have to compete with the rest of the world because we won’t block their inward trade goods either.

There you go. Complete idiocy.

[Workingman]

Trade deals eh? Ever so easy.

So Dr Liam pitches up at a third-country:

"Hello chaps. We had a deal with you when we were part of the EU, but now we are out we would like one of our own."
"OK, carry on."

So Dr Liam gets into his sales pitch... then the man from the EU pops up.

"Are you talking about a trade deal with the UK?"
"We are listening to them, yes, is there a problem?"
"No, not at all. You are a sovereign state talking to another sovereign state... erm, you do realise that you have a trade deal with us, the EU?"
"Yes, but we are only talking."
"Well do a bit ofthinking as well; do you want a deal with a market of 65 million or one with nearly 500 million, just saying."
"You wouldn't."
"Oh yes we would."

Of course all that is Project fear. I mean we all know how amenable the EU is when it comes to trade, they just roll over for a tummy tickle.

Here's a list of some places 'Air Miles' Liam might have to visit, let's hope he is not stalked by the man from the EU.

[Suff]

Yes WM, there is always that chance.

Which is why the UK should, first, align the commonwealth and position the UK as a facilitator in trade deals which are commonwealth in scope.

Then when Mr EU pitches up, the UK negotiators can say "do you want to trade with a bloc of 500 million who like trade barriiers, or do yo want to trade with 2 billion who prefer free trade?"

Now I could post a link of countries who Liam Fox should go to in order to do that, but it would be a waste of time. Because Mr Fox has been doing that for the last year.

[AliasAggers]

I voted remain as I genuinely believed it was the right thing to do,
and nobody but an idiot would take pleasure in watching their own country suffer.

That doesn't sound a bit like you, Kaz. Those of us who voted to leave the E.U. did so
because we felt that we did not want this country of ours run by unelected foreigners,
not because we were idiots.

[Kaz]

Aggers, I wasn't meaning it that way at all! I was replying to Suff saying that remoaners (as he likes to call us) would be gleeful if it all went wrong after Brexit, which us not how I feel about it at all. I am sure you voted with your conscience, as did I.