Trump proves

[Workingman]

It's not about the EU. The world does not revolve around the EU.

Suff, your OP was ostensibly about Trump and his steel tariffs, but it was mainly about the EU and the way it operates.

For some time now everything you have posted has been to attack the EU; be it on trade, its politics, its institutions, even its being. You are entitled to your opinion. I have never argued about that, but even when those who differ bend to your beliefs you still attack. It is as if you hate the EU so much that you will never see any of its benefits.

I know that it has its faults, and I admit them, but I also see that it has its positives. I would like the UK to be a leader in helping to turn those faults around. We can only do that by being in.

Being out leaves us with no voice, none, in one of the world's great trading blocs. Are you 100%, absolutely, 24 carat sure that your position is right? I am not! More importantly, if it is right can you guarantee its deliverance?

Answers on a pin head.

[AliasAggers]

Being out leaves us with no voice, none, in one of the world's great trading blocs. Are you 100%, absolutely, 24 carat sure that your position is right? I am not! More importantly, if it is right can you guarantee its deliverance?

I think I know how Suff will reply - probably the same as me - namely.....

No-one can be 100% sure of anything, but that doesn't prevent one doing what is honestly believed to be the right thing,
and I thoughly believe that GB is quite capable of functioning without the shackles of the E.U., and have no desire to be
just another state in the E.U., with un-elected EU people telling us what to do and how to run our country.

[TheOstrich]

You see, the thing is, Frank, to the older generation like Aggers and myself, "trading" is not the be all and end all of everything.

Important yes, but to us, not as important as self-determination. And I do not want to become a citizen of a vassal state of an unaccountable political body like the EU. I didn't sign up for it the first place when we joined the wretched EEC, and I certainly don't subscribe to it now.

Surely the backhanded appointment by Juncker of the arch-federalist Selmyar must give you some cause for concern ..... or maybe European federalism doesn't bother you overly?

[cromwell]

One of the problems with the EU is the UK. Or at least, the political classes and media of the UK.

In that they have never told the truth to the UK public about the EU. Ted Heath said that there was no chance of the UK ceding any sovereignty to the EU. It wasn't true.
John Major downplayed the significance of the Maastricht Treaty. Peter Hain said that the EU Constitution was "A tidying up excercise" when it was a great deal more than that. Tony Blair promised a referendum on EU membership, then forgot about it when he realised the likely outcome.

The desire of some politicians within Europe for a Federalised Europe, a superstate, has always been there.

But as I say the British public has been lied to about that, either deliberately or by omission. Or by playing up the economics (the European Economic Community, the Common Market) and ignoring as far as possible the political aspects. As indeed is still happening. All the talk is still of economics - in or out of the customs union and the single market - and the politics of a Federal Europe are still being ignored!

All I would like is a little more focus on that, because the media isn't giving us any.

[Workingman]

Frank ..... or maybe European federalism doesn't bother you overly?

A reasonable assumption, Ossie ... but it depends.

Take the €. Where a group of countries use the same monetary unit it makes sense, to me, for there to be unified tax rates, VAT rates, certain budgetary considerations and so on.

When it comes to trade with those outside the customs union, single market or free trade area it also makes sense to have unified (federal) tariffs, which we have.

For inwards migration of those from outside the union it makes sense to have a federal policy on their numbers and limits to travel within the area. We currently do not have that and so we got the Germany fiasco and associated political problems.

However, when it comes to foreign policy, given our rich and different histories, it makes it almost impossible for there to be a federal approach. Each situation would have to be dealt with on its own merits or demerits with some countries having the choice of opting out of any result.

I say the same for EU armed forces. There should not be much of a problem with a permanently established defence force where resources from different countries rotate in and out, but I am against the setting up of a standing 'army' under one military command even if that allowed for individual countries to set up their own 'National Guards'.

I hope that helps a little.

[Suff]

Apologies for my tardy reply. I moved apartment yesterday and then my Brother invited me over to allow me to smash cars into race track barriers for a few hours on his 65" 4k TV with xBox One X and Logitech steering wheel and pedals. I left, just before midnight, having finally won my first race. I've never tried that kind of thing before, it is very addictive. This morning I woke with a blinding headache and took the tablets and headed back to bed to try and sleep it off. I'm still losing that battle.

WM, my OP was not purely about Trump and his actions on trade. My post had a point to it which has largely been missed. The point is that, if you are big enough, you can get away with unbalanced and aggressive, application of tariffs and you can also do it to individual countries if you want to make the point. Then the WTO moves so slowly that it could take a decade to sort it out.

This is vitally important right at this moment in time because the UK is involved in attempting to negotiate the exit from a large and, unusually, territorial union of states. There is no point in being Mr Nice Guy with a bunch of people who only respond to strength. Strength in trade is simple, you won't negotiate a trade deal and we'll punish you every single day until you do. The fact that Trump is proving that this can be done is of benefit to the UK, not deficit. I'm not going to say this is without downside, it is not and Trump is going to find that out over the next 3 years or so.

But back to the first point. The UK is BIG Enough to make it stick and the absolutely Huge trade imbalance between the EU and the UK plays into the hands of the UK negotiators. What those UK negotiators need to do is take off the kid gloves and start punching to Hurt.

That was my original point.

On your point about my "Hatred" of the EU, I must admit that I need to address that. Let me first state that I do not hate the idea of the EU. In general I don't hate the EU as it works for the vast majority of the states within the EU. However I hate three specific things about the EU.

1. How it is currently set up to give France, Germany, Spain and Italy the vast majority of the power and economic clout
2. The fact that it is about as democratic as India with 200m people voting for 1bn lives. Whilst trumpeting its democratic principles.
3. Last, but probably my biggest issue of all, is the way that the UK government and media isolates the people of the UK from the truth of the EU and lies about it constantly.

In general the EU works for those it was originally set up for. Germany, France and Italy are the manufacturers and the bankers. Spain is the food basket. All of this protected by cast iron trade barriers and trade deals Heavily slanted towards keeping that status quo. Notably keeping money in the EU and competing goods out. All you have to do is look at the conditions of the EU trade deals to see that. Oops I forgot, people in the UK want to TELL me about how good the EU is but don't actually go and read the image the EU has on the world stage.

Trump's rant, today, about the EU trade barriers will get Significant Sympathy around the world by more than 100 countries.

Sitting on the side of that edifice is the UK. Whilst the EU wallowed in the mire after WWII, the UK got on with doing what it does best. Looking at infrastructure, setting standards the world can use, advancing technologically, socially and economically. Meaning that when the UK joined the EEC, it was 30 years ahead of most of the EU in advancements in these areas. Yes our ageing manufacturing industry, never updated much after WWII, needed to change, but the framework was there.

Add to that the fact that the UK trades with the world because the world speaks English for trade, yet much of the EU still punishes the use of English in trade and we have an even bigger square peg to fit into the round hole of the EU.


If people truly understood the EU, they would understand that the introduction of the new Eastern EU states has caused a huge shock and upset to the balance of the golden quadrangle of Germany/France/Italy/Spain. They arrived with huge agriculture, millions of cheap workers and a work ethic (especially Poland), which is diminishing in the west . This threatens the Old EU and they are trying to circle the wagons constantly. It is no mistake that the "Old" EU were talking about a 2 speed EU once the UK had left. The vast majority of the Eastern states are not in the Euro. Hungary is not in Schengen. There is a power grab going on because the UK was the arbiter of "fairness" to the new Eastern states and would happily threaten to use its veto to keep them in the inner circle.

Now the UK is leaving the EU and those Eastern states are being threatened because their strongest proponent is leaving. They're scared and, like sheep, are cowing dow to the "powers" in the EU and biting the hand which has fed them for so long.

So there we stand. At a crossroads. All our friends in the EU with their backs turned to us. All our competitors in the EU facing us with naked glee, determined to take more than their pound of flesh from the departing member.

So what do we, the UK, do about it? We do what we have ever done. We squabble, we lie to each other and everyone else, we bow down to the rapacious elements within the EU and we turn our backs on our friends in the rest of the world who are opening their arms to take us back into the fold. After all we have done to reject them over the decades.

Then you say I hate the EU WM. No, I don't hate the EU. Yep I'm absolutely furious right now but not with the EU so much. Them I understand at a level that very few in the UK do. Not only have I studied it, I have lived it and continue to live it. I own property there, I have run my business there for the better part of 20 years.

So if I'm not mad as hell with the EU and if I don't Hate the EU, then why am I so mad all the time.

Point 3 above. The LIES, the deceit, the politicking and the doing down of the UK. I am with Aggers, Ossie and Cromwell for most parts of what they say. The UK does not need to be consumed by an ever growing EU elite who are determined to "socialise" the EU by destroying the powers of the individual state governments. Many of the states in the EU will benefit from this but the UK is, most definitely, NOT one of them.

You say I refuse to admit that the EU has any good. The biggest problem is that the EU has a LOT to offer, a HUGE amount of good, but the PRICE of that good is so high because of the way the EU is constituted, run and the way the UK chooses to engage with the EU.

I hate the Mandelson's, the Kinnocks, the Blair's, the Major's, the Clark's and the Cleggs of the UK. Who will sell the UK down the river for personal gain. Corbyn, you thought I'd forgotten? No he falls into a different category of political power manipulation. He is cynically using the EU situation to consolidate left wing power in the Labour party. For that he has a whole different set of contempt from me.

Then you have the likes of May and Cameron. Determined to try and do the "right thing" as they see it. May's speech on the NI border was classic UK walking blindfolded into the trap. The EU cannot afford a border in Ireland. It has made such a political play about it that it simply cannot do it. This is the biggest stick the UK now has to force the EU into an equitable trade deal.

It is very simple. If the EU want to put up a border in NI it is entirely up to them. We, the UK, are free traders and we don't need a border. If the EU doesn't want a border, then the answer is very simple. Agree a trade deal which abolishes virtually all tariffs for UK produced goods and EU produced goods. No customs union required. Job done.

It is that kind of idiocy which drives me to distraction. You do not negotiate with the EU. You tell them what you want and then set about leaving them no choice but to do it. Otherwise you get creamed!

So, WM, I don't hate the EU. I will probably remain an EU citizen when this is all over as it will be the only avenue left for me to keep living the way I intend to live. That is my choice. What I hate is the way the UK exists within the EU and the lies which are told about it.

I don't even care about their army or their aspirations of world power. What I DO care about is the EU leaning on UK power very heavily and then claiming it as its own preserve whilst stuffing the UK at the same time. Brexit will fix that. It will also fix the problem that the EU is hiding behind the power of the UK to try and hide its own world power aspirations. Once the UK is gone, the size and scope of the EU army will be visible to all. Then the world will have to decide what it does about it. I expect Russia to be particularly concerned.

I hope that this covers my entire view on the matter???

[Kaz]

Well lucky you, to be able to remain an EU citizen despite hating most things about it! Millions of us here, who voted remain, are about to be stripped of their citizenship against their will!

[Suff]

I didn't say I hated most things about it Kaz. In fact I said that for the most part it works well. I said the UK was an extremely poor fit for the EU and the inability of our press and politicians to tell the truth about what the EU project really is makes it an even worse fit.

The reason I have the ability to retain my EU citizenship is because I have several sponsors for French citizenship. I have expended quite a lot of time and effort, over the last decade and a half, making friends, helping where I can and (worst of all for me, for whom this is extremely difficult), learning the language.

The situation I am in is vastly different from the situation most UK citizens are in who have, in general, no contacts on the continent, don't speak any of the languages and have done nothing more than put a tick on a piece of paper and paid the subscriptions for the last 40 odd years.

I can tell you, without any shadow of a doubt, that all my French friends feel exactly the same way about the UK, in the EU, that I do. Namely that the UK, because it is such a bad fit, should get out and let the EU become what it is going to become.

Even people who want to remain do not want to be in the Euro, nor do they want to be in Schengen. Ever. My friends, all over the EU, from Sweden to Spain and from France to the Czech Republic, see this as being separatist. To whit they don't understand why we don't just get out. They do not see why their governments keep on giving us concessions.

If you actually sit down with the average European, who is not from an anti EU party and talk to them about Britain and the EU, you will find a general consensus for that feeling above.

The reason they don't understand about the concessions to the UK is because the EU is not very forthcoming about how much the UK contributes. I can tell you that the €13 billion figure, finally trotted out by the EU, was one HELL of a big shock for everyone concerned. Because the EU has been soft pedalling Brexit as being a big loss to the UK and just a mild irritant to the EU.

There is not a single country in the EU27 who wants to contribute to that €13bn. They all see it as someone else's fault, conveniently forgetting that they all brought this on themselves by facing Cameron down. Sounded like a really great pitch when Junkcer and Tusk put it to the Council and the Commission, without the UK present of course. On top of the fact that the figure of €4.9bn was floating around about the Actual UK contribution, the UK sounded like a bunch of whingers. We were "Rich" see and we "didn't want to contribute".

Now the boot is on the other foot. Since that €13bn figure was announce, the EU27 solidarity has wavered. Germany is telling all and sundry that as they pay the most they should foot the least of this bill. France is telling everyone that as they have been footing the largest part of the UK rebate, there is no point in coming to them.

I, who actually talk to my EU colleagues and friends about this, am much more European than the vast majority of the Remain voters in the UK. Because I actually live and breathe it. I don't just go there on holiday once or twice a year and enjoy the benefits "such as they are", of the single market, whilst standing on the outside and never intending to integrate.

In that sense it makes total sense that I should remain an EU citizen. I've worked for it and I have worked damned hard for it.

I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that those who live in what the French call "English Ghetto's", buying their daily shopping form the UK and having it shipped out to them on trucks, who still don't speak French after two decades in France; are not seen in the same light at all. But, by god, if they had had a vote they would have voted Remain.

[Kaz]

Sorry, this is making me so cross, I'm leaving it be........

[Suff]

I'm going to leave it be too.