When nothing changes everything remains the same.

[Workingman]

The vast majority of us do accept that Leave won, but that does not stop us from having an opinion on the outcome. It is not as though any of us, on either side, can change things.

[cromwell]

I voted REMAIN but accept that the DEMOCRATIC vote was OUT so why can't REMAINERS accept that they didn't win

Many people have wondered that Vic.

My own opinion is that it's mainly a generational thing. Education doesn't seem to produce enough bright, inquisitive intelligence any more. Again, it's only my opinion but young people don't seem to be taught how to think (for themselves, using evidence, rationality, logic) so much as what to think.

We are imo entering the world of cultism, where the only necessary thing is to believe. Never mind evidence, never mind questioning, here is what you should be believing. It's like a religion.

For instance, diversity. The new slogan is - diversity is strength. Diversity is at the heart of everything we do. The old slogan used to be, unity is strength. When and why did that change?
Why is diversity automatically better than homogeneity? Silence. Why is diversity unquestionably good? Silence again. You are encouraged to believe - not to question.

So when many young people see what they have been told is good - in this case the EU - being rejected, they can't process the rejection. Something good has been defeated, therefore the wrong must be righted - leaving the EU must be stopped.

It's why the debate so quickly descends into rage - sometimes coherent but usually incoherent rage. The young haven't researched the EU to any great extent, the pros and the cons (yes, there are some pros). They just know that it's good, therefore anybody who opposes it is bad. That's why there are so many insults thrown at leavers - racists, gammons, xenophobes, facsists, little Englanders, thickos, etc.

I realise parts of this are painting with a broad brush but it's pretty near the mark to me.

[Suff]

And that, my Remain friends, is what the ordinary John and Jane have been force fed by hardline Brexiters (formally EU haters) these last 45 years or so.

The principle is that if falsehoods are told often enough they take on an element of truth. They do not have to be outright lies, as those can be challenged with facts, but if they only hint at perceived injustices those perceptions become real. The door is then open for more of the same until an ideology exists.

Today's ideology is: EU Bad - Brexit Good. For those who wish to buy in it is plain and simple to understand without question.

It's a bit late to find out that the Leave view is the correct view when you have lost your rebate, lost your currency, lost your borders and lost your effectiveness of your government.

But, please do, just go on believing that the Remain view is correct and everything else is falsehood. Especially those who have never even lived or worked anywhere else in the EU. WM I know you have and not only the EU but beyond too. However many of us who have lived there, long term, worked there for decades and have integrated closely into the people who reside there, have a totally 180Deg opposite view to the remain view.

Those remainers, 25 years out of the UK, fuming because they could not vote for Remain, don't give a cr@p about what happens to the UK so long as they get to live the easy life in the EU. That should be warning enough, but, no, the above is what those of us who actually have lived and known the EU, as it is today, not as it was before the EU came into being, actually understand to be true.

Just remember. Of the Key facts that Farage gave us prior to the referendum, virtually ALL of them have been proven to be true. As for the "key facts" put about by the Remainers? Virtually 100% of them have been proven to be totally false. Yet they keep on at it. "Well if you don't get a deal it's all going to go to hell and you're all going to lose your jobs and the economy is going to collapse and the UK is going to be the prisoner of everyone else....."

Consider the track record; even if you don't want to believe what I say....

[Workingman]

Suff, I feel pretty sure we can agree, academically, that the Remain campaign got it blisteringly wrong.

Leave went for unproven 'possibilities' and then talked them up and up and up till they became 'real'. A good ploy.

Remain started off promoting the positives of the EU and what could happen if they were lost. Leave countered with 'Project Fear' and Remain caved in. Instead of going with the positives till people were sick of hearing them, which is what it should have done, it went for challenging Leave's 'possibilities' - things that did not exist. Try knitting fog.

Remain could have knocked down loads of myths and legends surrounding 'sovereignty', 'immigration' and 'club subs', the Leave core issues, but chose not to for some reason.

That does not alter the fact that Leave over-egged just about everything in the locker.

[Suff]

Remain could have knocked down loads of myths and legends surrounding 'sovereignty', 'immigration' and 'club subs', the Leave core issues, but chose not to for some reason.

That does not alter the fact that Leave over-egged just about everything in the locker.

The immigration thing, very true. It's not going to stop any more than it stops in Australia. The difference is choice and control. The discerning Leaver knows that, the band following milk sop does not.

Yes Leave over egged what is possible "today". No doubt. But every thing Leave promised is possible, had they said 20 - 50 years, they would have been absolutely correct in every word they said as a possibility.

Remain took a deliberate and direct approach. Lie you ass off and try to scare the people into doing what you want.

Leavers had to ask themselves ""Why did they do that? Why would they lie so badly? What do they have to hide".

That question is as valid today as it was at the day of the referendum and is still as unanswered today as it was then.

As for Nationality? We have already given it up. Witness that we can't secede without the EU's permission. We had to "ask" in the correct form. Witness the US and NAFTA. "Renegotiate or we're leaving". Unilateral action by a fully sovereign Nation state. This is not in doubt, the TEU even states that we have given up our "full powers, found in good form". Anything else is a subtle lie to try and force the people into something else the politicians want.

Oh I don't argue that "better off in" is a valid statement, if we limit the discussion to the next 5-10 years. After all nothing would change, the same pitiful existence would continue and that would be fine. If you want to live on gruel for a chimera of safety. It took nearly 80 years for the people of the USSR to finally understand that they were being offered "Safety" by giving up everything else they held dear. We know how that ended.

So when anyone wants to go back and look at the whole thing, over again, they need to understand one thing. Leave presented future benefits as present benefits and didn't bracket the time. Remain lied their asses off.

I don't need to know any more than that.

[Workingman]

Remain took a deliberate and direct approach. Lie you ass off and try to scare the people into doing what you want.

Nonsense of the first order. It was Leave who lied, cheated, misinterpreted and promised the undeliverable. The facts are out there - see Farage, Hannan and Banks for details.

I see that trying to be reasonable is a 'king waste of time so I will not bother any more. Closed minds can never be opened to other views, and that is now perfectly obvious.

[Suff]

Remain took a deliberate and direct approach. Lie you ass off and try to scare the people into doing what you want.

Nonsense of the first order. It was Leave who lied, cheated, misinterpreted and promised the undeliverable. The facts are out there - see Farage, Hannan and Banks for details.

I see that trying to be reasonable is a 'king waste of time so I will not bother any more. Closed minds can never be opened to other views, and that is now perfectly obvious.

Erm let me see.

The economy has collapsed and we had a punishment budget.

Right.

[Suff]

I don't have a lot of time as Mrs S is looking over my shoulder every 10 seconds so my answers can be short or long, depending on the situation.

I know you were trying to be reasonable here WM but the point is this. Leave may have painted a rosy picture but Remain told deliberate mis-truths which they knew were lies from the very outset. The lies told by Remain have already been proven as lies and, yet, remainers continue to present them as truth.

Leave lies have yet to be seen. I don't doubt there were plenty of them, however there were also plenty of home truths in them too. Whilst reasonable is good, the remain campaign was one of fear and browbeating. The Leave campaign was one of hope and aspirations for the future.

God only knows how hope won out over fear and doom. Perhaps the tone of the country is not quite dead yet.

Oh and remain trying to brand all leavers as hardcore neo Nazi racists didn't help the debate one little bit either. That was a core tenet of the remain campaign and it was not in the slightest pleasant.

Honestly I don't see any way that this will be a reasonable debate. Both sides are far too entrenched and neither side is willing to give because the core of both sides want it all or nothing. Therefore there is no ground to negotiate and the voices of reason will be squashed.

During this whole situation the EU has performed exactly as expected it to. What changed for me was that, had we failed to win the Leave vote, I would have happily lived the upsides of the EU. Although I would probably have left the UK to wallow in the decision it had made and used their decision to make my life better and more rewarding than could be possible in the UK.

That has changed for me. I don't want the EU to have any more to do with the decisions of UK laws, UK trade and UK defense. They have proven, beyond any doubt, exactly who they are interested in and what they are interested in. There are now 78 days remaining before we bang out without a deal.

I'm sure there will be more and more bile, hate and violence before that threshold is reached.

I must admit the parliament insisting that May come back with Plan B in 3 days is brain dead. Great, and when they vote that down, what next? Because they haven't thought that far ahead. Another 3 weeks to get to a vote? Their choices are stark and simple.

1. Accept May's Deal and face the wrath of 75% of the people
2. Bang out with no deal and face the wrath of 50% of the people
3. Recall our notification of A50 and face the wrath of 75% of the people

May is trying to please all of the people all of the time. Parliament is trying to limit the impact at the next election. Neither is going to work. So just get on with it.

Tick Tock Tick Tock. All I see Westminster doing is running the clock down. We have a deal or we have no deal. This is exactly the choice I stated the parliament would have when May made her statement about a "meaningful choice". It is meaningful, dramatically! Not what the MP's thought but that's their problem...