Racism.... in football.

[Workingman]

I have put this here because it is not about football, it's about us.

The England game with Bulgaria was nearly called off because of 'racism' but it has not as yet been defined as to what it was that was racist. Monkey chants and throwing bananas is obviously racist, or more correctly, 'colourist', and here's the problem.

If England play Germany and a player makes a bad tackle and is the booed for the rest of the game is that 'racist' or... just how it is? If Nigeria play Kenya and an opposing players get a less than appreciative reception does that become 'racism'? But when it's a white team v a non white team?

This is getting so confused because there is 'racism' and racism. A lot of it seems like virtue signalling by the 'right on' crowd to me. I might be wrong.

[Workingman]

Touchy subject, eh?

Apparently there were monkey chants and Nazi salutes, all captured on tape, so racism is proved. There are now calls for Bulgaria to be banned from international competitions until the problem is sorted.

That's fine, in theory, but what, in reality, can Bulgarian football do? Will every fan be interviewed prior to entry to the ground? Will tickets only be sold to those registered as fine and upstanding citizens? This is a societal problem for the nation of Bulgaria to sort out, it is not just a football problem.

It might also be a bit early for England and the FA to get all high and mighty. These incidents happen in our own leagues and grounds, but shush. Also, let's not forget, only a week earlier some wonderful England fans rioted in Prague. Police and bystanders were injured, stun grenades had to be used and 14 arrests were made. Ban England?

[meriad]

Not sure why, because I'm really not interested in football, but this has been on my mind quite a bit today.

Apparently there were monkey chants and Nazi salutes, all captured on tape, so racism is proved

See for me that is totally bang out of order. It's not the first time this has happened in a game (and not just football) and I really do think that the only way something like this will ever be stopped in a sport is by banning the offending team from the next how ever many games; knocking off points or do whatever needs doing. If a team can't play they'll be bottom of the league etc and the fans won't be happy and then hopefully the good fans (because let's face it, there are more of them than the bad fans) will get sick and tired of the riff-raff and will sort them out. And then who knows, maybe - just maybe - things will improve

But something has to be done in the world of sport, it really does

[Workingman]

Ria, please do not get me wrong, I am not defending racism or trying to diminish its impact, but I am trying to understand it and how to deal with it... and other things.

I get the point about bans and docking points, but, as you rightly say, there are many more good fans than bad and and they do not deserve to be punished for the actions of a small minority.

I remember the bad old days of football hooliganism when Leeds United's fans were some of the worst in the country, but banning, docking points and fines only hurt Leeds United FC. They had no impact on the morons who could move on.

It eventually cottoned on with the powers that be that the above methods were not working and that clubs (countries) cannot pick and choose or control their fans unless and until they could be personally identified. It was only with the introduction of CCTV inside and out of grounds in places where fans congregated that things started to change. Individuals did get bans and some were taken to court. Running parallel to that was a culture change within football itself. A lot of work was done to create spaces for women, children, the disabled and families to go watch games. Most of the thugs were driven out or had to change.

There are plenty of ways and means of identifying the individuals and punishing them without tarring a whole nation's followers as racists.

[meriad]

Ria, please do not get me wrong, I am not defending racism or trying to diminish its impact, but I am trying to understand it and how to deal with it... and other things.

I know you're not Frank and same as you I try (but really struggle) to understand the mindset of people that think it's OK to be any form of 'ist Just why is it so hard to accept people for what / who they are?

[TheOstrich]

This is probably a bit tangential to your OP, Frank, but it's my take on it all. I'm looking at both racial and non-racial violence here, because violence, in a way, is the key.

Can I say at the outset I don't condone monkey chants or banana throwing, things which are indeed in-yer-face racism. But that aside, it all gets a bit murky.

Football is tribal. Always has been, from the medieval days of street football, Upper Town versus Lower Town sort of thing. Occasionally (in the historic sense) it gets out of hand, like the football hooliganism of the 1970's and 1980's, and yes, it then needs to be curbed especially when serious injury and fatalities are likely to occur. Indeed, I was on the receiving end of Leeds United hooliganism back then, amongst other clubs. The prevalence of violence then (which I also witnessed at Carrow Road, Portman Road and St Andrews) was one of the reasons I stopped supporting League club Birmingham City and started watching non-league football in Stourbridge FC (although it must be said here that, IIRC, the Glassboys then became the first club in the country to have to post up FA Ground Closure Warning notices after an ancient granny physically attacked an opposition defender at half-time with her umbrella for taking out the home winger ) Which brings me on to my second point.

Football, in times of peace, replaces war. It's a deep-rooted human nature thing. Do you remember the James Caan film "Rollerball" (1975)? The very premise of the film was a brutal "sport" - contests between cities - that was a 'war substitute' for an very affluent but repressed society. That film, like Orwell's 1984, was very prescient. If you look at society today, we say we are 'free' but we are not, really; there are increasingly repressive and complex strictures and laws in this country. We have CCTV, we have ANPR, we have Data Sharing - and it is all effectively 'suppression of the masses by the establishment'. You may dismiss me as a conspiracy theorist, but that is what many people see and many people think. Can you keep the lid on a bubbling pot? And that takes us back to football.

You can apply any number of rules and regulations - how about banning goal celebrations by players in front of opposition supporters, for example (something that sparked off racist abuse recently at Hartlepool vs Dover) - and you can have any number of initiatives such as Respect and KickItOut, but all these will be perceived as are yet more examples of state interference. And ultimately, I doubt any of them will work. Why? Because you are looking at a deep-rooted flaw in human nature, and the only way you are going to curb this is by going down the China pathway of total state behavioral monitoring and "social credits" for accessing Charman Xi's little app for your daily dose of propaganda.

Do you really want to go down that route? Be very careful what you wish for. Do I think you will ever eradicate violence, in its widest sense, from football? No.

EDIT - just looked at a National League club's programme obtained a few weeks back.
And I came across this:
"Racism, Xenophobia and Intolerance:
....... all supporters have an obligation to report any racist behaviour to the nearest steward, club official or police officer."

Obligation? Now there's an interesting concept for discussion ....

[Workingman]

Ossie, if I may I would like to expand on the sentiment of some of your points. A few good yet uncomfortable ones were made on Sky by a man from the University of Dundee who has studied fan culture in sport.

In recent times footballers in the leagues of the UK have made quite a bit about racism. It has become a cause célèbre where football racism is seen as somehow worse than other forms, but they are doing it in a place where that battle has largely been won. Former Eastern Bloc countries are not in that same place, yet, and that is partly because they have not had the historical contact with coloured races within their own that we have. It is not an excuse just a valid observation.

He then noted that in the run up to the game England players had been all over the news talking of walking off the pitch as a team when (if) racist chants started, which was like a red rag to a bull for the Bulgarian morons. The players tried a preemptive move to stop something from happening, but instead they gave the idiots something to aim for - up pops the rule of unintended consequences.

A big problem I have with all this talk of bans of different types is that banning does not solve the problem; and it could make things worse as those who were not in any way involved become angry that they are also being punished. Everything that I have heard today has been very knee-jerk and from the heart rather than the head.

[Workingman]

"Racism, Xenophobia and Intolerance:
....... all supporters have an obligation to report any racist behaviour to the nearest steward, club official or police officer."

Snowflakeism at its finest!

[AliasAggers]

In my opinion, everyone has their own likes and dislikes regarding racism, and one is quite entitled to have them.
The point is, of course, that it has been decided that these views must not be expressed, but surely one is quite
entitled to think them if they so wish.

[Suff]

That was the gist of what I was thinking Aggers. In fact I would take it one step further and say that this millennial snowflakism is driving this kind of racism to silence.

Of course once you have silenced it, you have no idea who they are and it is likely to burst out in truly dangerous and uncontrolled hate.

Today you will never know the full extent of what I think. Why? The UK has fairly firm laws about spoken defamation, but extremely strong laws about written. This is historical where word of mouth faded but the written word could last well beyond your lifetime.

Today mobile video has the same place as the written word. In a world where a conversation between two friends can become a media nightmare, purely because some snowflake has a mobile and an axe to grind, means that dangerous intentions and feelings are going to be hidden and repressed.

Clearly the snowflakes are clueless to the fact that if you don't let people get the aggravation out by venting at the players/ref/linesmen, then that aggravation can turn ugly.

The other point I was thinking about was what WM said about these nations being very inward looking and not having a broad view of the fact that people are just people. Good, bad, they come in all colours, races and creeds.

That being said, it would appear that no years before the 90's ever happened in Britain. But I remember them. I was in the Army and it was virtually institutionalised.

They say that the most ardent anti smoker is a reformed former smoker.

Food for thought.

Clearly none of the above excuses the behaviour. I just find that the proposed alternative is as segregating, overbearing and damaging as the thing it is proposed to solve.

And that is as much as I'm willing to say on the matter.