Carbon neutral fuels?

[cromwell]

Apparently the EU has a draft plan to allow sales of combustion engine models using carbon-neutral fuels as an alternative to electric vehicles; and therefore not to ban the sale of ICE cars from 2035 as they had previously proposed.

This is after pressure from the German motor industry.

Are carbon neutral fuels the same as ethanol?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/ ... sktop_home

eta - I've read the whole article now, can't see this being goer for the UK. I notice that Porsche has researched into this option, probably why the Germans have raised it.

[Workingman]

Oh, FCOL! There are no such things as carbon neutral nor net zero, not for ships, trains, planes or automobiles. We are being conned into thinking that we can just carry on and all will be well. Everything we do bungs out more and more CO2, even breathing.

So, get this. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has issued a new report that will be totally ignored by governments and their industries and economies, as per this latest twonk. They now say we will breach the 1.5 º C in the 2030s. It warns that: "There is a rapidly closing window of opportunity to secure a liveable and sustainable future for all."

And the solutions are... well, more of the same (the ones we are ignoring) - new technology, reduce the use of fossil fuels, go for carbon capture, use more wind and solar, eat more greens, bring net zero plans forward by at least a decade. Erm, reducing the use of fossil fuels means that net zero can never be achieved. It can't anyway, but it is a nice soundbite for the masses.

What you will not find much of is controlling population or even reducing it over decades; stopping the wrecking of the environments of land, sea and air; reducing food miles, reducing consumption of just about everything; nothing of repair, reuse, recycle.

[Suff]

I tried to answer this but kept getting the same file error as WM. I'm wondering about post size.

Because this just worked.

[Suff]

e-Fuels are ethanol and synthetic diesel. They are expensive in both money and energy. Which, with constrained renewables and CO2 neutral sources, means more CO2 output.

The largest NEV (including hybrids), manufacturer in the world is BYD. BYD also sells vehicles in the $30,000 range as opposed to Tesla who won't reach that price till 2024 with their new vehicle they intend to manufacture in their Mexico factory.

BYD are coming to Europe and have bought an old Ford factory in Germany.

The German Auto industry is lobbying for a JCB with which to dig their own grave.

[Suff]

Oh, FCOL! There are no such things as carbon neutral nor net zero, not for ships, trains, planes or automobiles. We are being conned into thinking that we can just carry on and all will be well. Everything we do bungs out more and more CO2, even breathing.

Not everything but certainly just about everything that the fossil lobby pushes for. Factories which produce solar panels, which then use their solar panels to power their factories and then use electric transport to send their goods, whilst charging on solar, can be significantly reduced in terms of emissions. Their manufacturing is a one time cost. The output of the product dramatically reduces CO2 emissions for the entire lifetime (up to 50 years now).

Synthetic fuels? Does nothing. EV on solar and Wind? Massive reduction in emissions. Especially when they get to 90% recycled batteries.

We mustn't conflate the two. There are a lot of pressures to "just carry on". Especially by the unions for automotive and other industries where jobs are going to vanish like snow in strong spring sunshine. The pressure for biofuels comes from engine manufacturers, automotive unions and from vehicle assemblers who simply don't want to change. That is not the same as "everything we do creates more CO2".

[Workingman]

OK, so the electricity produced by solar power is CO2 neutral, but taken in the round it is anything but.

The factories producing them, even if run on 100% solar power, have a huge CO2 footprint in all their bricks and mortar, concrete, glass, copper wiring and piping, CH and Aircon, climatic systems, robots, IT systems and so on. Their transport is mostly from China on bunker fuelled container ships. Even if produced nearer to home their transport is by artics and vans using mainly diesel. Their own materials had to be mined, refined and produced in other factories somewhere.

Then there is the electricity end use. It is in homes and offices and factories with all their irons and kettles, air fryers, microwaves, washing machines, cookers, hair driers, TVs, laptops, mobiles, the Internet.... All of those and their materials had to be produced somewhere.

In what is now basically a closed system (for 2.5 bn years), the Earth, there is no such thing as carbon neutral nor net zero. The laws of thermodynamics do not allow them.

[cromwell]

What you will not find much of is controlling population or even reducing it over decades.

Unfortunately the model of capitalism that we have determines that an ever growing population is a very good thing, when obviously as far as the planet is concerned it is anything but.

That's why overpopulation is never, ever mentioned.

[Suff]

OK, so the electricity produced by solar power is CO2 neutral, but taken in the round it is anything but.

Yes, but you have to start somewhere. Refusing to take that first step means that things can only get worse.

Consumerism is, as you say, driving up CO2 emissions. However if we remove 30% of direct emissions by moving to EV vehicles, it is a direct removal. Because the alternative vehicles also cost in CO2 to produce.

EV's have a longer life and even running on a coal grid, their CO2 footprint is paid back after about 10 years. And we know that the coal grid is going away. A 10 year old EV (current technology), with moderate mileage is still very viable.

So EV could be used for 20 years. Meaning their footprint is paid up and they continue to reduce our emissions. Running it on Gas is even faster. On full zero emissions (at the point of generation, not footprint), power means their footprint is depreciated the fastest.

There is no Perfect solution to this. But refusing to engage because there is no Perfect solution is worse than simply saying you don't give a crap and the world can go to hell.

[cruiser2]

May be slighjtly of key.
Went to Halfords on Wednesday, Bought two aeroslols of de-icer. Each item is shown onthe receipt. This is over 12 inches long. It is covered with
printing on the back as well.
Just wonder hpw much CO2 has been wasted making the paper roll and then printing the receipt.

[Suff]

I always ask for an emailed receipt these days. First I lose the damned things and second it doesn't require any printing. The whole spam thing I just ignore nowadays so I'm not so sensitive about giving out my address. The worst offender right now is Costco and I can see them going in the sinbin.

If I'm asked for a receipt I decline unless I know I'll need it for returns.

It is time we moved away from this massive paperfest.