EU - the gloves are off ....

[Aggers]

.
It is also a bit rich for some of you to now claim to want out,
out of a situation your lukewarm attitudes helped to create.

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by a bit rich, Frank.

I have never accepted that we should be in the EU, but we (the voters)
have never been given the opportunity to have a say in the matter.
It has all been done in an underhanded manner, quite out of keeping with
the basic principles of democracy. My attitudes in this matter have never
been 'lukewarm' if you don't mind.

[Workingman]

John, we voted twice in the 70s to be 'in'.

Those who democratically voted 'No' have every right to continue to fight their corner, but those who voted 'Yes' and then changed their minds because they didn't like the outcome, should live with it - they are the lukewarm ones.

I suspect that many of those who are now anti the EU are those who once voted for it, but because it has not gone the way they wanted it to go - UK at the helm - they now do not like it.

[TheOstrich]

I voted against Common Market membership, so my name isn't Luke Warmer either.

You know, our forefathers fought twice against the principles of a German-lead European hegemonic superpower. Now I see this country sleepwalking into a similar situation by default. I'd find the blandishments of the Europhile politicians in this country, like Cleggy and Cable, laughable if they weren't so tragic.

Have we learnt nothing from history - <shrugs> I guess not ......

[Aggers]

I voted against Common Market membership, so my name isn't Luke Warmer either.

You know, our forefathers fought twice against the principles of a German-lead European hegemonic superpower. Now I see this country sleepwalking into a similar situation by default. I'd find the blandishments of the Europhile politicians in this country, like Cleggy and Cable, laughable if they weren't so tragic.

Have we learnt nothing from history - <shrugs> I guess not ......

Yes, Ostrich, I agree with you.

We have never had a vote on a United States of Europe.

I lived through WW2 and, bearing in mind the thousands of people who lost their lives in battle
in two world wars started by the Germans, or were cruelly murdered by them, I have no desire
whatsoever to be associated with them in any way.

[Workingman]

John, I can understand your personal view with regards Germans, but please hear me out.

When I was at RAF Laarbruch the RAF employed some former German soldiers as a civilian workforce. A man I worked with was a former Hitler Youth, so probably about your age. He had no choice in the matter, or should I say that he was "persuaded" by events at the time that being in the HY was better for his health than not being a member.

The overwhelming number of members of the Wehrmacht were no different from the soldiers of the Allies. They were the victims of the war in much the same way as your generation was - they also died horrible deaths as well.

Those who came after are much different than those from before, in a similar way that I am from you. They are not warmongers, by any means, but they do have a certain pride in what they do and how they do it, a self-belief - something we as a nation have lost.

Perfect they are not, but neither are they Devils.

[Kaz]

Aggers my darling Nan lost her beloved Daddy when she was four years old - he went down on HMS Hawke in WWI, in October 1914, when it was sunk by a U Boat. It ruined her childhood, as her mother who was pregnant with her little brother at the time had a massive breakdown from which she didn't fully recover, and Nan was bought up by maiden aunts.......Then of course as an adult she lived through WWII................

At the end of the 1960s her youngest daughter, my Aunty P, met and married a young German man she'd met on her travels. Nan was horrified, upset and worried for her, but she got to love my Uncle Mannfred, they settled in the UK for a few years, while their three children were born, then moved out to Germany. My cousins are German citizens now.......Nan visited often, and grew to like both the people and the place.....My German relatives visited me last summer, they are delightful people.

Things have to move on, it is almost 75 years since the last WW xxxxxx

[Aggers]

Kaz: I understand what you say, and I don't disagree.

You should understand, though, that during WW2 we were brainwashed to hate the Germans,
and, as far as i am concerned, our Government made a good job of it. So much so that I find
it almost impossible to change my opinions. I know people now blame it on the Nazis, but they
(the Nazis) were put into power by a democratic vote by the German electorate.

[cromwell]

I voted "Yes" in the 70's! I voted yes because I was 20 years old and thought I knew it all - I didn't. I voted yes because I believed the lies I had been fed by UK politicians like Heath and Wilson, because I fell for the massive "Yes" campaign and because (most red faced making of all) I believed the line that the "No" camp were - my God - old fashioned.
All of which (going off on a tangent) makes me very cynical indeed about lowering the voting age to 16 years of age.

Anyhow, it is what it is. I don't believe we will get a referendum. Even if we did, I believe that the result will be a narrow win for the staying in camp. Because it won't be a fair fight. Big business wants us in, and they call they shots in this country. The BBC wants us in, and they are the biggest propaganda service in this country. All mainstream politican parties want us in. And if push comes to shove, I think that standards in this country have declined to the point where the vote would be fiddled if it looked like the No vote would prevail. I lived through the referendum campaign of the 70's and imo any campaign would be equally as full of abuse, lies, misinformation and obfuscation now as it was then. The electorate would be threatened with 90,000 negatives about why we should stay in, the direst of warnings would be given as to our economic prospects, we would all have to sell our families into white slavery and eat concrete for 100 years if we came out, etc etc.

And a week later we'd be back to moaning about the EU.

If the politicians had ever told the truth about the long term aims of the EU it may have been different. But you can't lie, evade, mislead and refuse to answer important questions for 40 years and then ask people to believe in your integrity on the subject. UK politicians have told more lies about the EU than they have about immigration, and that's saying something.

[Workingman]

I was stationed in Germany for most of the 70's, only a stone's throw from the borders of Belgium and the Netherlands. As I was over there and living the 'dream' I had no experience of the propaganda from either side of the UK argument so I cannot defend or challenge the assertions that it was all a pack of lies or that only one side was at it.

What I was finding on a daily and weekly basis was that the Europeans did not all smell of garlic and have two heads; some of their food was nice, very nice; and carting around three (or more) sets of money was a pain. The people were pretty normal and it seemed like a good idea for us all to be together as one.

That is how I felt then and it is how I still feel today.

[Aggers]

UK politicians have told more lies about the EU than they have about immigration, and that's saying something.

I guess you are right, Cromwell. It is frightening to think of the scheming, wheeling and
dealing that must go on behind closed doors. Democracy, as it is called, is disappearing
fast, and one dreads to think where it will all end. As has been famously said, "you can't
fool all of the people all of the time". There will be a bloody day of reckoning, I'm sure.

Frank - I can see the point you are making. It makes sense, and if the formation of a USE
succeeds in preventing World War III that would be a very good thing. BUT my belief is
that WW3, consequent upon the effects of inevitable world-wide climate changes, will
arise between continents, rather than countries.

God help us when that happens.