If I were to do something to stop a Yes vote in Scotland

[shazsha]

Personally I'd like to see Scotland as an Independent nation and will be voting Yes at the ballot box.

I believe Scotland has the necessary assets to go it alone and dont believe we'd need to come to our neighbours with a begging bowl asking for handouts.

I'm certainly not inspired by the romanticised version of Scotland, as potrayed in folklore or by Hollywood, and certainly wont be going around screaming "Freedom" at the top of my lungs!

However my honest, gut feeling is that the Yes campaign will be unsuccessful and that we will remain part of the UK.

I don't believe the Yes campaign has been successful in getting their facts out owing, in part, to the media. I've already mentioned it on here that the BBC website has stopped all comments on their articles on Independence. Any other subject will have "experts" giving us their thoughts and readers can comment/debate/point out inaccuracies, etc. However this isn't possible on the subject of Independence and a lot of inaccuracies are being presented as fact without any way of debating the issue.

TV and newspapers, imo, are definitely supportive of the No campaign and I know people are definitely being swayed by this. The only media that appears to carry info from both sides is the Internet with many sites giving out good info/debate though you do have to actively seek it out.

When VV was on the old server we had a small debate about Independence and Suff gave out some interesting links which made me more aware of Scotland's assetts (not just oil!) and led me to believe that financially we could go it alone.

I believe for the Yes vote to be successful that their campaign would need to be vastly expanded. I do think that it is relying on Scots patriotism to carry the vote and I just dont think that's going to work. My thoughts are that as a nation, we can be very patriotic with regards to football matches, etc but when it comes to the crunch the necessary info isnt getting out and this will influence the vote in the No campaign's favour.
On this matter I hope my views are wrong( as they have been so many times!!!) but I do think that after the ballot we'll still be part of the UK.

[Workingman]

You might be right about the "No" vote winning, Shaz, but if it is a close run thing I do honestly believe that that outcome will give Scotland a very strong hand to play against Westminster.

The Scots will have sent a shot across the bows with the warning that next time things will be different. If only the Welsh, Northern Irish and the majority of us English outside of the London centric "bubbles" could exert such an influence!

[Suff]

Shaz, I've known for a long time (since I started in computing), that Scotland was producing more to the economy that any source, either Scottish or English, would admit.

Glad to have been of help to you in making your decision. I am truly sickened by what is happening in the press today.

Interestingly, if you look at the fiasco in the CBI today, then look back at the position that the CBI took over the EEC, you can see a pattern. I'm just happy that, this time, they were burned for it.

Personally I think that almost everything said, as the campaign goes on, drives a larger and larger Yes vote. The No campaign is losing votes as it really winds up. Mainly because it is a seriously negative campaign and that appeals to nobody except the already hardline convinced.

Time will tell. The move is consistent and relentless. The No campaign falls and the Yes campaign climbs... Undecided voters are leaning towards the Yes and also people are beginning to see a bigger picture. The more we see the more it is clear. Vote yes, take a chance and, perhaps, reap the benefits. Vote No, do as you are told and take whatever is chosen to be handed out, no matter how much you produce.

Sounds a LOT like the whole EU debate right now....

[Workingman]

You know what? I am beginning to think that a "Yes" vote would be a good thing.

I am getting the impression of a sentiment that the Scots actually do not like the English, even if that is not the case the other way.

It will be interesting to see how their independence squares with a desire to be a member of another union, the EU, and how they go about getting both. If Scotland does not get membership of the EU and, therefore, the Eurozone, it will be interesting to observe the negotiations it goes through in its bilateral trade agreements with the EU, and who benefits most. I look forward to following the exchange rate between the Scottish Groat and the £,$ and €. And as for the Zoll/Duane booths at the border; they won't bother me, I won't be going back.

I do not want the Scots to leave the Union, but if that is what they want, really want and understand, it is their choice. I will be a touch sad as I like the country and its people, but if they wish to leave all I can offer is "Bon Voyage".

[shazsha]

I am getting the impression of a sentiment that the Scots actually do not like the English, even if that is not the case the other way.

Lol WM, I think a lot of Scots would say the same in reverse.

I truly believe that this sentiment applies to a lot of countries in the world. I've seen Americans diss Canadians, Aussies dissing New Zealanders, etc., and can only conclude that some people just like to assume their nationality is the best and that their neighbours dont match them for quality!!

I also believe that people who think this way dont really dislike the individuals of their neighbouring country, rather they dislike the country as a whole concept. I'm probably not wording this well but I know what I'm trying to say!

As for the Zoll Duane booths...in my mind they wouldn't be a big deal. I envision the border being similar to that which exists between the North and South of Ireland with relatively free flowing traffic!!

Suff I hope you're right and the Yes campaign is successful but I have my doubts...only time will tell. Re the CBI, they really have had their fingers burned on this occasion. Their "honest mistake" was in now way honest or a mistake-they just underestimated the reaction to their actions and are heavily back peddling.

Question for Kaz....If the Yes campaign is successful you won't force me to produce my passport to enter the VV Land, will you?

[cromwell]

Imo it's beyond question that the "No" campaign is so negative that it is helping the "Yes" campaign. There are those who would welcome Scotland going their own way in that it would place them firmly as an EU region and help EU regionalism /federalism. Thinking particularly of the Lib Dems here.

But why would the Labour party want a "Yes" vote? They stand to lose 40 odd MP's in the HofC; the Tories stand to lose one. So short term, the Tory party's cause at a general election would be immeasurably helped by an independent Scotland. Yet the Tories seem genuinely to want the Union to continue? If Labour want Scotland to stay as is, they are doing a spectacularly poor job of it.

Work that out, as they say.

If there is a good, positive case for Scotland staying in the Union, let's hear it. Instead of constant negativity and threats, let's hear an uplifting, inspiring case for the preservation of the Union.

If one can't be produced then maybe the Scots would be right to go their own way, who knows?

[Workingman]

Ever the night owl Shaz, 3.34am!

I see Hague and Salmond have been at each other regarding the unsquareable circle of Scottish independence; jumping out of one union and straight into another.

Hague says: "Scotland benefits from the UK's strong voice in Europe". Strong voice? Who is he kidding? The UK is always on the step sucking its thumb.

Salmond says: "he would highlight the constructive role an independent Scotland could play in the EU", and that with its natural resources "Scotland can provide energy security for Europe". Who is he kidding? Scotland in the EU is not independent and its dwindling oil stocks and wind farms will not even scratch the surface of European energy security.

Salmond also says: "The Scottish government has proposed using a treaty amendment under Article 48 of the Treaty of the European Union as a 'suitable legal route' to facilitate an independent Scotland's membership, rather than seeking accession as a new member state."

The more I hear from him the more I become convinced that what Salmond wants is more about the break up the old Union rather than have a truly independent Scotland free to do its own thing unhindered by being a member of a club.

[Suff]

WM, there is certainly a large swathe of Scots who don't like the English. Then again there are an even larger majority of Scots who either like the English or do not differentiate between English and Scots as they see everyone as British. However a debate like this only shows the worst. The press, muckraking as ever, also only show the worst. They want to sell papers so they will always jump on the most radical cases.

Also the Scots don't understand the English. I, who was schooled in England and have family from lower Kent to the Highlands, understand them quite well. Many English abuse their own. Call Geordies Half Scots, abuse any regional accent which is not local to their own strong accent. The English have a good, but sometimes very sardonic, humour. When it's turned against others it's quite cutting.

However the Scots are always at the bottom end of the dark humour well. Whilst Geordies may be "thick in arm and thick in head", the Scots are "Barbarians" etc....

Consider being the butt of this kind of humour and also not understanding the people behind it.

Another thing which unfailingly irritates me is here in France. When I still had a home in Scotland, I'd mention going home. They would say "Oh so you're going to England soon". "No I'm going home". "Yes to England". "NO I LIVE IN SCOTLAND".

The first time you come across this it's amusing. Year after year after year after year, it becomes extremely irritating if not downright annoying.

Cromwell. The Labour "party" machine is solidly NO. However some Scottish Labour MSP's think it would be better to be separate from England. Consider that their power would be increased massively in an independent Scotland and they don't give a damn whether England goes Tory forever or not.

Then you have to consider the political dynamic in Scotland. The PR in Scoltand produced two Lib Lab coalitions. They were almost universally hated. Then lorded it over the Scots and pretty much told them that if they didn't like it, they could go stuff it. So a massive sea change happened. Something which could, without PR, have totally wiped a party out of politics. They voted for SNP in numbers sufficient to give Salmond a minority rule.

When the sky did not fall in, as predicted by Labour and Lib Dems, they voted for Salmond again in greater numbers. He achieved a remarkable victory. An outright majority in a PR system. Something almost completely unseen in the EU at central government levels. This was not so much a vote "for" SNP as an absolutely damning vote "Against" Labour and the LIb Dems.

This is my opinion, based on my experience of these assembiles and how we voted (Yes I voted SNP in every Scottish election I was entitled to), but I'm sure if I got it wrong Shaz will weigh in.

In this scenario, you can consider that families which vote Labour or LIb Dem are torn right down the middle and the SNP vote is growing. In that sea of discontent, Salmond is serenely sailing his ship of independence and every salvo against him is one of threats, intolerance, dire predictions and gloom. Is it any wonder that the remainder of families, already split by the extremely bad behaviour of Labour and the Lib Dems, are defecting in even greater numbers to a cause which might allow them to completely realign the political Landscape in Scotland with the chance that it would better reflect the wishes and aspirations of Scots?

Is it any wonder that the massively negative NO campaign is failing? When Salmond took his first "government", the opposition were equally destructive. It did not happen. Salmond proved he could horse trade and work with other parties to further Scotland Only issues. At the next election, the opposition opined dark and dire consequences for Scotland if the SNP were (god forbid), to win. It has not happened. Things are much the same or even better for many. They are also promising that the wealth of Scotland will be redistributed "when" then get the independence and the power over their own budgets and revenue sources.

Is it any wonder why so many are rejecting the No campaign? Is it any wonder why those wavering are All, without Exception, moving to Yes? Is it any wonder why those who were initially not willing to trust to the independence movement are moving away from the No campaign as they see the reality of what it is and what it portends for Scotland?

Personally I hope they will vote Yes. For two reasons.

1. Because I actually believe it will be better for Scotland in the long run (50 - 100 years). If not in the short term
2. Because I believe that once one major schism has happened, the second one, the separation from the EU, will be a simple choice to make.

Let's be clear here. Both of these are things which will impact me heavily. Mrs S is a Scottish citizen of the UK. She would have to make a decision on Scottish or British citizenship. As she's a rabid NO in the campaign, she might even go for French. Secondly, we live in France and I work internationally, mainly in the EU. Leaving the EU would impact me heavily. Yet, I, believe that is a good thing for all members of the UK. I, for one, can see beyond my own personal interests. Remember I live here and have spend almost 22 years living and working in EU countries.

That was, perhaps, too long. But I hope it enlightens some as to exactly what is going on. It also might allow people to understand just exactly why the Scots are rallying to the SNP banner and the Independence vote even if they are not fully convinced of the case.

In the light of what I've written here, just go back and re-read this thread. I'm not particularly exercised about it, but it might be good to reflect....

[Workingman]

So, let's get this clear.

Salmond wants out of the UK because he does not like Scotland being 'ruled' by London - he's not alone there, many English do not like it either, but I digress. Then, as part of the deal, he wants to take Scotland into the EU where, if you believe the anti-EU brigade, it will be 'ruled' by Brussels. Work that one out. No doubt the 'antis' will then bleat on about another In/Out referendum because they have never been asked, even though the process is plain as day with the current referendum.

The whole thing is a bloody farce.

Either stay with the UK, and remain in the EU, or go your own way as a truly independent country. Do your negotiations with the UN, IMF, WTO, World Bank, EU and make all the bilateral arrangements you require, but do it off your own back. Just don't think that by voting "Yes" on a Thursday you will be indpendent on Friday. It could take decades for the paprwork to get sorted and in that time Scotland will be in a kind of limbo.

I want Scotland to say "No" and then for it to put pressure on Westminster for a fairer deal, as a club member. It is what I have always said the UK should do with the EU, so I am at least consistent.

[Suff]

Ah, you see and don't see.

The Scots who might welcome "Scotland" in the EU as opposed to the UK in the EU, with England negotiating with the occasional nod to Scotland are quite large. They might even be able to negotiate their own Fishing deal better than England who appear to be totally crap at it.

However, as I said at the beginning of this thread, the Anti's are pushing 6% of the vote into "Yes" because they don't believe the English will vote Yes to leave the EU.

This is based on the statements from Barosso that Scotland would be forced out of the EU if they chose to secede.

As I said. Take the Anti vote away and you get a No. The Anti's recognise that 2 years is a lifetime in Politics and that Scotland, expelled from the EU, might prosper greatly.

As for negotiating treaties etc? You have to travel the world as a Scot and not an Englishman to understand the difference. Whilst, as English (UK), countries just want to say NO but can't because of the size and power, the opposite is true of Scotland and the Scots. Except in England of course. Scots are all over the world and, bye and large, are welcome and accepted. English are also all over the world and are, in my experience, tolerated.

Scots know this. The English do not. So, again, the argument doesn't work. Scotland would not have an English position in the world. They are well aware of this. So arguing English issues for a newly emerged Scots nation is not going to work.

Right now the momentum is for Yes and the single biggest issue is the Scots Anti's are believing Barosso. The fools!!!!