So unimportant that

[Aggers]

If we are indeed a United Kingdom, I cannot understand why this Yes/No vote is to take place
only in Scotland. Don't we in England get a say?

Will we , later on, be giving Cornish inhabitants a vote for their independence?

And what about Wales, the West Midlands?, etc., etc.

I can't see that this fragmentation is of any long-term benefit to anyone.

What we want is a Prime Minister with enough guts to say NO and tell the Scots to grow up.

[Suff]

Aggers, Scotland is a Nation with a Monarch and was a Nation who's monarch took over the vacant English throne. Unifying the crowns.

That doesn't mean that Scotland can't choose to secede from the Union which Unites the kingdoms and be that same Nation again, with the queen as it's head of state.

Much the same is said about the UK within the EU. The Maastricht and Lisbon treaties created the Nation State of the European Union. Many EU countries say about the UK, just say NO and tell them to grow up, or just tell them to get the hell out of they can't make their mind up. Nobody in the EU will get the choice as to whether the UK leaves the EU, except for the UK citizens. Our representative and head of state signed the accord and only Our people have the right to say whether we secede from it or not.

Exactly the same with Scotland. A Union is not slavery. It's a choice. If a part of the union decides to exit then it is entirely up to them. Or we could have a post Yugoslavia situation. I thought we were the world leaders in democracy.... You could expect a civil war in Yugoslavia, but we're supposed to know better.

There is no doubt in my mind that an independent Scotland would be hugely better off than Scotland in the Union. England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be much worse off. Which means, if you think about it, that the rest of the UK is living large on the short term wealth of the Scots.

A bit rich to be constantly calling them a bunch of scroungers isn't it? As is done regularly in the English press. Then the English press gets all offended when the Scots, funding the English largesse, decide they might want to cut it short and take back some of that income...

Looks like a very different picture north of the border doesn't it? Especially as those who do want to secede are saying exactly the same thing to the English. Grow Up and stop throwing a tantrum.

[Aggers]

Food for thought, Suff.

I must admit that I'm biased - and disappointed.

We've lost the greatest Empire ever known, and we will finish up. no doubt, being just "England".

Can you understand why I am so disappointed?

England is certainly not the country it was when I was born.

[Suff]

Aggers I can understand Exactly why you are disappointed. So many decisions made by so many poor custodians of our once great nation. Leading to the eventual break up of the Union itself.

To be honest it's pitiful. It's not what I would have wanted. Yet I sat there in Scotland for 10 years, voting SNP and rejecting all that I had believed in for so many years; watching English decisions being pushed on Scots for no other reason than the Westminster parliament was predominantly English. I sat there and watched these decisions impact only Scotland and recognised that for Scots to override these decisions, the English would have to stand with them. Which they did not.

Many Scots today have not forgotten that. Many Scots have not forgotten Major promising the motorwaying of the A1 and the electrification of the East Coast main line, before the Election; only to be told after the election that he did not mean "would" but merely meant "might". Did he think the Scots were that stupid? Scotland has never had more than 1 Tory MP since that time. There were more under Maggie.

A trail of hard driving and/or morally bankrupt (yes some of these were Scots), PM's, using the English vote to override the Scots, has driven the Scottish people to reject the English Union. It didn't have to be. It should not have been. But it is what it is.

In my mind, whilst the Tories take their share of the blame, Labour takes the prize for destroying the Empire and everything we used to be proud of in the United Kingdom. They have never had my vote and certainly will never get it.

For those who do not understand, a wholly corrupt and totally morally bankrupt Lab Lib coalition, over 2 terms, drove the SNP to, successively, a minority government and then a majority government, in Scotland, under a PR voting system. Something I thought would never happen. I learned never to underestimate the power of a negative and rejecting vote.

So, again, Labour let in the SNP, who then were given the chance to have this referendum. Especially to have this referendum after 1 and a half successful terms in government. They changed the balance of the state, reintroduced grants and fees for University, gave benefits to those who needed them. The roof did not fall in as was predicted from Westminster. All without the full benefit of controls over taxation or the revenues of North Sea Oil. All under the budgetary controls of Westminster.

It is a very different world north of the border these days. Something the English media fail to convey. When you have a complaint about something to do with the state in Scotland, your Westminster MP will immediately refer you to your MSP. Your MSP, in most cases, will act and act fast. The NHS, DWP and others listen to MSP's and react. It is more how government was meant to be. SNP MSP's tend to be faster to react and get more done for you on an interpersonal basis. Is it any wonder they hold the vote and continue to increase it? It will take many terms before they fall to the Westminster malaise.

To me it's nothing to do with Salmond and, mainly, to do with Labour and buying votes with cheap actions such as devolution or parliaments. The SNP would never have gained a majority of seats in Westminster the way they have MSP's in Scotland.

I know I go on and on about this. But honestly the English do not understand and will never understand unless they actually come to Scotland to live for a solid block of time.

[Aggers]

Suff - I read and re-read your posts and have tried hard to see your points of view.

You have not exactly converted me, but you have shown me aspects of the Scottish viewpoint that I
was unaware of, and, if a Yes vote wins I won't be as concerned as I otherwise would have been.

I wish, really, that I didn't have such a plethora of patriotic feelings about England, but I can't help it.

[Suff]

I wish, really, that I didn't have such a plethora of patriotic feelings about England, but I can't help it.

Aggers, I would want nothing less than for you to have those patriotic feelings. I would be incredibly sad if you lost them. My heritage is mixed English/Scottish/Welsh. I should be fanatically "British". What I would most fervently wish for is that the English political body deserved your patriotism.

But I wish no less for the Scots. In an equal and honest Union it would be excellent for Scotland. But equal it is not and honesty is a dirty word in politics today.

[Workingman]

If I had a vote I would be in the "No" camp, for reasons I have already stated, but this would have me running, frothing at the mouth, into the arms of the "Yes" camp.

Who the Hell do these people think they are? Being a 'Celebrity' does not give them a right to be heard, it certainly does not give them any right to tell people what to do.

[Kaz]

Patronising isn't in it!!!

[Suff]

Most Scots I know would only have one answer to this.

Git Ter F.

As I have siad all along. The biggest potential impact to the decision on what to vote will come from outside. Most of it will be negative and so feed the Yes campaign.