As for that promise?

[saundra]

No mater what happens politician's do as they want
Was there All this hassle when Wales became self rule
I really don't know

[Suff]

Ok I'm going to bite. I promised myself I wouldn't but I'm waiting for the washing to finish before going out for a few Guinness and a stake and ale pie with a friend of mine.

What am I going to bite about?

But it really got my back up the other day when Government were promising "them" if they stay "they" can continue to get more money per person than the rest of the UK. That really annoys me. Why should "they" - its bad enough that "they" do already without the government dangling a carrot in front of people to try and get "them" to stay. If "they" want to go, let "them" - don't promise things at the rest of the UK's expense. Its like persuading a child to eat their greens by promising them a pudding afterwards!

This is the whole crux of it.

First of all the three stooges rush up to Scotland, get thick as thieves with Bumbler Brown and lash out a document which has not been agreed by parliament and never will. So it's an insult, yet again because they will never be able to deliver on it. It's annoyed everyone in the Entire UK.

So why did they do it.

OK let's take that paragraph apart.

But it really got my back up the other day when Government were promising "them" if they stay "they" can continue to get more money per person than the rest of the UK

OK, #1. They don't. They get less. A lot less. Because they bring more to the table with their standard economic GDP PLUS the Oil which is way larger than that GDP. Yet they get less than 50% of what they produce.

That really annoys me. Why should "they"

Because they pay for it. Every single penny piece. And much more.

its bad enough that "they" do already without the government dangling a carrot in front of people to try and get "them" to stay

Now stop and think about that. We have a democratic referendum to split a part of the UK from the rest. It can't be challenged, it can't be stopped. If it is what the people want, then it will happen.

So, now, tell me why Cameron, who has massive, massive gains to make with his party and Clegg, with little to lose now his party has been decimated, will come to Scotland on their bended knees and give virtually anything insubstantial to get Scots to stay. I mean insubstantial because without all Scottish Oil revenues, everything else is just more of the same. Scots sharing their wealth with the rest of the UK.

If you actually stop and think about it, that panic reaction is because they can't balance their budget without the Scots. A friend of mine related something he was watching on TV. About two couples who go out for a meal together regularly. One couple gets wired in and orders every course, wine, sundries etc, but the other couple does not want that. Yet they always split the bill 50:50. Until the day the moderate couple put their money for their half on the counter to pay. And the other couple are embarrassed to have to admit that they have not brought enough to pay for what they have ordered.

Should Scotland leave, that is what will happen to England and the rest of the UK. They have been spending large on Scottish money. If Scotland votes Yes, they have to give up that wealth and start slimming their meals down.

Panic? Yes, absolute catastrophic panic.

If "they" want to go, let "them" - don't promise things at the rest of the UK's expense.

That's backwards. In fact, if you are that way inclined, it's not just backwards, it's insulting given what I have said above.

Its like persuading a child to eat their greens by promising them a pudding afterwards!

Actually, no, it's like Oliver Paying to live in the poor house and being denied food when he asks for more. But when he decides to leave he's offered one extra bowl of gruel instead of the meat, potatoes and veg he's paid for.

Those who are voting Yes already know this. Is it any wonder that they get incensed. Is it any wonder that they scream "LIAR" to the No campaign politicians? It is a wonder to me that it has been so well behaved which the police have reiterated only today.

Consider this. The majority of the press are pushing No, the majority of the politicians are pushing No, the majority of the media are pushing No. Most of them are lying though their teeth every single time they open their mouths. Yet Scotland is teetering on the brink of a Yes vote. Because too many people know the truth and are not scared of making a move.

Remember that link I posted in my last post. I've been tracking that one. I think that the papers got it wrong. I think, come tomorrow, that all the cashlines in Scotland are going to be issuing English Notes. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I'd love to be right because a lot of undecided's will recognise that for what it is, a last ditch attempt to keep hold of something which is valuable to them. It will tip may over to Yes.

Also here is something I'd like to say now. Before the vote. This last mad cap attempt to keep Scotland in the Union has already stuck a dagger in the heart of it. This promise of more and more and more, alongside the stories of not producing enough to warrant it, will force Wales and Northern Ireland to demand the same whether their economy warrants it or not. On the other side, the English are going to be incensed. They still can't understand why all these politicians are running up there offering the earth. They still believe the fairy story of how the Scots (nice people and all that but), don't pay their way. So why bother. They will vote that frustration at the next Westminster election.

So, yes, you made me bite. Because I'm just so sick of the whole tired bit about how the Scots don't pay and are just a millstone. God I hope for a Yes vote. It's going to hurt. A lot, a huge lot, more than anyone but those begging politicians and the Scots who know to vote Yes, can even conceive of.

Let me leave you with one small conversation at the lunch table at work today. I was told that the EU would put Scotland on the back burner for entry.

So I told them. There are approximately 5 net contributors to the EU. The UK is one of them. Are they really going to lose all that money.

They told me: Well Spain will veto it because of Catalonia.

I told them: So the EU will be happy (Spain too), to lose 75% of the North Sea fishing rights?

They laughed and said: And how would Scotland do that.

I laughed and said: The man who can tell England that if they deny Scotland the benefit of the money which Westminster used to back the debt Westminster ran up, then he would not take any of Westminsters Debt; is quite capable of selling the fishing rights to 75% of the North Sea to Russia!!!!!

Silence!

[Workingman]

Suff, I wouldn't be too sure about 75% of the North Sea fishing rights or 90% of oil revenues, there are alternative views.

An independent Scotland, as a coastal state, would automatically be entitled to territorial waters of 12nm from the low water mark (most oil is outside this limit) except where the boundaries of two or more states overlap, at which point a boundary equidistant from all shore emerges. The area you are talking about is the Exclusive Economic Zone around Scotland, except that it forms part of the UK's zone as signed into international law by the UK. It is probable that post independence these waters will be handed over to Scotland in their entirety. That does not mean that other nations will not challenge their limits at a later date.

I also found this legal interpretation from the archives.

HOUSE OF LORDS

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

The Economic Implications for the United Kingdom of Scottish Independence

June 2012

North Sea Oil and Gas: Under the international law of the sea Scotland would be entitled to an exclusive economic zone (EEZ) covering a significant area of the North Sea4. This would give Scotland access to substantial tax revenues that currently accrue to the central UK government. The Scottish government has estimated what the effect would be on the assumption that what it calls the “geographical share” of oil-related production and revenue is assigned to Scotland5. This share is based on the “median line”, which projects outwards into the North Sea from the coastline at the boundary between England and Scotland. This is the area that might belong to Scotland’s exclusive economic zone in the event of independence. It is estimated that approximately 90 percent of current UK North Sea revenue derives from resources located within this area.

The Orkney and Shetland Islands: There is concern in the Orkney and Shetland islands about membership of an independent Scotland, and in the event of Scottish independence it is conceivable that these islands would opt to remain part of the UK6. The Scottish National Party has conceded that this would be a feasible option for the islanders7. It would have important implications for the control of North Sea oil and gas. According to the normal principles of international law, there would be an exclusive economic zone around the Orkneys and Shetlands if they were to remain within the UK. This would give the UK control of part of the North Sea that would otherwise be under Scottish control. The fact that the Orkneys and Shetlands are located close to Scotland but several hundred miles from the English shore is no obstacle to them remaining in the UK, nor under international law does it prevent the UK from having an EEZ based on these islands. The exact boundaries of such an EEZ are uncertain and would have to be settled by negotiation between the parties involved. Media reports claim that a quarter of current UK North Sea revenue derives from resources located within the potential EEZ of the Orkneys and Shetlands. This is about 30 percent the North Sea revenue that Scotland might otherwise expect to enjoy following independence.
__________
4 Eric LeGresley (1993): The Law of the Sea Convention, Library of Parliament Research Branch, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. http://publications.gc.ca/Collection-R/ ... p322-e.htm.
5 Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland 2010-2011, Scottish Government, March 2012, table 3.1.
6 Tavish Scott MSP and Liam McArthur MSP: Scotland's Constitutional Future – Northern Isles: A response to the UK Government's Referendum Consultation, March 2012. 7 BBC interview with Angus MacNeil, the SNP’s rural affairs spokesman, reported in the Daily Telegraph, 20 March, 2012.

Nothing is as cut and dried as it might appear to be.

[Kaz]

You know, Deb's view is one a lot of people south of the border share. I want the Scots to stay in the union, but there has been an awful lot of vitriol aimed at us here (SOTB) so it does get your back up a bit! It's bound to

This whole thing is terribly divisive and a bit of a Pandora's box if you ask me! How are we all going to live together - or side by side - come Friday morning? I mean the nation BTW, not this board It's all a massive gamble, and I hope it will have been worth it

[TheOstrich]

Suff, if I understand you correctly, and please correct me if I don't, you're arguing that Scotland deserves more than it's £1,6xx per head additional spending money because Scotland produces all that North Sea Oil.

It seems to me that, from your Scottish standpoint, you're making an implicit assumption that the United Kingdom is intrinsically unfair. Others, however, might argue that all resources generated by the UK, i.e. revenue from Scottish Oil, City of London Financial Services, Welsh Steel, Lancashire Chemicals, West Midlands Car Manufacturing, Northern Irish Shipbuilding, Herefordshire Dairy Produce, East Anglian Wheat, Cornish Pasties ...... all these should be shared by all the people, equally, and that is what a fair country does.

From an English standpoint, extra per capita dosh is being given to Scotland, and to Wales (I don't know about NI bit suspect it is.) You are receiving over and above. Perhaps you can understand the feelings of the English population who are thinking "Hang on a minute ...." Or perhaps not.

Now we doe-like, politically-apathetic Englanders don't really mind you getting more than your proportionate share. But if you want even more cake, then you can't be surprised that some folk might want to stab you in the back of the hand as you make a grab for it.

An economist was wheeled out on BBC Midlands Today tonight to discuss the Scottish decision and what it would mean in the West Midlands. His conclusion was that, on balance, a Yes vote would be more beneficial to our local economy down here. Whatever happens would be painful, but a Yes would be less painful, because we would then see a fairer distribution of the national boodle.

A word regarding vitriol. Believe it or not, I can empathise with the Yes voters mobbing the Westminster politicians. Because you wait until I get a Junker or a Cleggy in my sights when we're campaigning to get out of the EU. I shall be politically energised! I shall be there with my placard. So I'll not condemn the Scottish flash mobs. You'll all know the biblical quotation: let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Finally, still on local economy, please, please, please vote Yes, Scotland. We will reap a great personal benefit here! No, I haven't laid down a bet .....

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/mi ... ew-7789435

Once we have a Yes vote, I'll launch a competition to design a suitable monument. (Or maybe I'll just nick Meriden's monument and install it on my front lawn!!) The Calder Green's our local!

[Workingman]

For me the Yes campaign has continually talked up 'possibles' as 'probables' and over-egged that whole of the cake, whilst at the same time crying 'bully' and 'foul' whenever they were challenged.

The No or Better Together camp never actually talked up why we are better together, all we got were the 'possible' negatives as to why we were worse apart; they were always on the back foot at every turn and lacking a credible leader.

A totally unconvincing and uninspiring campaign from all sides.

[Rodo]

I am probably quoting here what is an over simplistic view, but a large proportion of English people simply see that the Scottish get free university education and we don't. The Scottish get free prescriptions and we don't. We think it is very unfair. Now politicians are talking about giving the Scottish more rights or concessions or whatever you call it.

It just seems bloody unfair from down here.

[Kaz]

The Welsh get the free prescriptions too, and the higher education is subsidised so it does seem very unfair - basically because it is unfair!! The Welsh girl Becky roomed with at Bristol last year was paying almost a third of what B was paying, just over 3k as opposed to over 9k - how is that fair when we are all British?

[saundra]

The Welsh get the free prescriptions too, and the higher education is subsidised so it does seem very unfair - basically because it is unfair!! The Welsh girl Becky roomed with at Bristol last year was paying almost a third of what B was paying, just over 3k as opposed to over 9k - how is that fair when we are all British?

no thats not fair i agree and with rodo as well
whater the outcome
you can bet your bottom dollar everything will go up
and scotland will be blamed

[Aggers]

I must say that I've learned much more about the pros and cons of Scottish Independence
on this (Vocal Voices) website than I have from newspapers or television. That I welcome.

I'm, afraid, however, that whatever the Referendum result will be, I will never look upon
Scotland with the same affection that I previously had. Those who propose separation do
not, it seems, have the same feelings that I have about Great Britain, and some of them
are possibly motivated only by greed.