Croatia next, then......

[cromwell]

Unfortunately photographs of migrants lying dead in the snow would be favoured by those who support mass migration, like the UN. Because then the emotional blackmail would really ramp up and the pleas to "help these poor unfortunates" would become deafening.

I own up, I am very hard line on this. It wouldn't affect me one bit. I wouldn't let one of these violent, entitled chancers into Europe.

Never mind about the short term righteous glow of helping the unfortunate, we would be letting (eventually) literally millions of people from lawless Muslim countries into Europe. What could possibly go wrong, eh?

[Workingman]

Unfortunately photographs of migrants lying dead in the snow would be favoured by those who support mass migration, like the UN. Because then the emotional blackmail would really ramp up and the pleas to "help these poor unfortunates" would become deafening.

That sounds like a good argument for preventing it happening.

I wouldn't let one of these violent, entitled chancers into Europe.

They are already here, hence the potential disaster.

[Suff]

On thinking about this and reading the comments, I’m struck, all over again, by the way in which this is stage managed.

The thing is that if they knew us at all they’d be doing something entirely different. But they don’t know us. Yes they are trying to blackmail us but by their standards, not ours.

As was mentioned by Osc, the huge number of young men are there. I note that it’s always some young man holding up his “precious to their society” young son, trying to sway us. If they really wanted to get at us they would not have ranks of angry men throwing bottles and ranting about the fences, they would have ranks of young mothers, with their daughters, crying at the fences. They’d be forced open in a day. Why don’t they? Because they don’t value the mothers and daughters in their society the way we do. They don’t understand and so they look to be exactly what they are.

Of course when the western press get involved they go behind the lines to the women and girl children, left where they belong, out of the action and they play on western sensibilities.

I have children and I have grandchildren. I hope, during my life, to see some of my great grandchildren reach their late teens. I put myself in their place and it does not drive any sympathy for their cause. It makes me angry to see so many flagrantly putting their family at risk for nothing more than a chance of an easier life.

I don’t want to see the press with the legions of dying and dead any more than you do. But my answer is not the same. I’d forcibly relocate them to one location in Greece and then I’d forcibly deport them back to Turkey from there. Ditto for all the new arrivals.

I would then work with Turkey to set up the registration centres for immigration into the EU right on top of the camps in Turkey. Where they are not at risk, where the pressure of hunger and susceptibility to the elements cannot be used for blackmail.

Then I would take those who really need the help. The rest would be left where they are.

That is the humane thing to do. That is the sensible thing to do. That is the thing which would protect the most people, both immigrants and EU citizens together.

That is where the EU and the UN are criminally falling down. Their failure to address the situation at its source and provide both hope and firm refusal, where refugees are safe and fed, is the direct cause of all of the deaths of these illegal immigrants trying to get into the EU.

Merkel, the EU institutions, Juncker, they are all culpable in this and many of the deaths must be laid directly at their feet. Over and above them is the UN who are also sending out entirely the wrong message.

So when you say they need camps to stop them dying I say they need something else. Bus them to the local Harbour, put them on a troop ship; which has all the warmth and basics anyone needs to survive, then sail them back to Greece and put them in a camp there. Process them and deport them to Turkey unless they can prove, outright, there and then, that they need more than Turkey is offering.

That would save the very largest number of lives. That would be the easiest thing to do. That would cost the least. It would also be the most humane thing to do for all those women and children, rather than leaving them in tents in -20 conditions, shivering under blankets with disease and fevers running rife and killing hundreds if not thousands.

Notably that won’t be done. When it is not done, I will still be sitting here saying “If you had done the sensible thing, then these people would have survived”. I won’t be saying “put them on a train now and get them into the heart of the EU”.

I know what you are saying WM. I just believe that to do it would make the situation much worse. Orban is absolutely right. Apply the law, process everyone fairly and correctly within the law. Then everything will work as it was designed to work.

Instead the strongest Bangladeshi’s and Afghans and Syrians and Africans will get everything they violently push for and the weakest, most desperate, Syrians, will get nothing.

I know it’s not popular but it must be done. It will be done eventually when 800k becomes 4 million or 8 million or 10 million and that will just be the vanguard.

[saundra]

It really upset me watching sky yesterday with baby's and tear gas
The idiot parents what do they expect to be waiting for them
A job house and freedom
Who sold them the dream
The trafficking who make there money
It's coming winter and countries are being overwhelmed
They should stay in Turkey near there homeland to hopefully return one day

[Workingman]

I have consistently said what many of you are saying, in fact I have been more hard-line than most throughout all of this.

When Syrians first started landing in Greece I said that the Greeks should kick them straight back to Turkey or there would be trouble. We all know how that went.

When the hausfrau sent out her invitation to the Syrians the flood gates truly opened and still the Greeks refused to send them back, though they could have. I predicted trouble.

I think I know why Greece refused to act. They were looking for bailout funds and the Germans were in the driving seat - don't do what the Germans want and you get no money.

Then Macedonia had to deal with the flood. It was fairly hard nosed for a few days before capitulating. Serbia also followed suit, made a few noises, then caved in. Serbia, Macedonia Bosnia and Montenegro could have acted differently and sent everyone back to Greece, but the did not. They are not in the EU or Schengen so they could have acted. Why didn't they? Could it be that as candidate countries for entry into the EU they felt that their chances were better if they played ball?

Then came all the other games. Austria closing its border, opening them, closing them again, reopening them.... The Hungarians playing hard ball, as is their right, and closing the border with Serbia, and so things have moved on.

All the things about rounding them up and moving them out, putting them on boats and sending them back I have agreed with, but they are not happening. Those with the power to do these things are not acting, they are sitting on their hands and sniping at each other. They are holding talks about a meeting to set the agenda for another meeting sometime: whenever.

But none of that politicking matters now. 6.000 crashed into Croatia today. They are heading for Slovenia and Slovenia has said it will not be a corridor to Europe. If the Slovenes and Hungarians hold out these people will be trapped.

[Suff]

Well they won't be trapped. The could go back the way they came.

In fact they will trap themselves. They are trying to either force their way through with sheer numbers or force their way through by blackmail. As this goes on sympathy will fall until the bodies start to pile up.

But here's the rub. If the bodies start to pile up, that is the time to stand firm. Because that is the time when those who think they can just override our laws and our people, will have to take pause and draw breath.

Of course we won't. So those who are left will be the hard core who now know, beyond a doubt, that our laws and our rules count for nothing....

I don't want to see these people dying either. But! Here is the hypocrisy. On any day in many countries in Africa, you can see the same deaths or even more for the same reasons. All we have to do is go and look and report it. Why won't they? Disaster fatigue. People will eventually realise that they can't solve all the world's problems tomorrow and then they will harden and turn off. The press does not want that because they want to be able to use the shock value when they want to push up ratings or increase circulation.

So instead of going to Africa and showing how it really is, they go to European countries and try to swing the mindset and the will of the people so they can increase viewers and circulation.

I'm not going for it. Even if they all die. All they have to do is turn around and go back to where they came from. The place they were welcomed and where they were offered sanctuary.

Anything else is avarice.

[Suff]

Croatia has closed it's border with Serbia and Slovenia is throwing unregistered illegals back into Croatia rather than letting them cross over. Even those on trains who won't stop moving before Austria.

All these migrants who had an easy ride. Illegally crossing borders, refusing to be registered, ever moving on. Suddenly it's all falling apart. Eventually it will turn into violence and then it's really going to turn nasty.

Hungary is now starting to look just like the rest of them. In Croatia the illegals tried to force their way in and, I'm sure, pressure of numbers will force the Croatians to start using the Army soon to protect their borders.

I'm pretty certain that they are all worried that at some point the music is going to stop, the borders will close and they'll wind up with tens of thousands in country that they can't get rid of. It is quite notable that once the scheme for doling out 120,000 immigrants fell apart, all the more southern states started registering and closing their borders.

Which is risible really. There have been half a million of them this year already and the numbers are increasing, not stopping or decreasing. What that 120,000 scheme would have done was to set the ratio. The EU then fully intended to apply that 120,000 scheme to however many people decided to turn up.

I wonder what stuff the EU ministers have been smoking? So I turn up and get sent to Sweden. My brother turns up 3 months later and gets sent to Malta. Then he hops on a plane 3 months after that and winds up on Sweden. Ditto Germany. After all Germany is saying migrants can't choose their country...

I see the BBC has a Footnote on "terminology" which differentiates the two different types of "immigrant", but they continue to lump them together in their headlines and articles.

I wonder when the Serbians will start pointing the immigrants at Romania? At which point they'd have to cross through Ukraine too assuming they won't get through Hungary that way either. However then they would get into Slovakia which is a Schengen country. They could then simply get on a train or a plane with their credentials and be anywhere in the Schengen zone.

Eventually and it has to happen, Macedonia and Albania will have to close their borders to Greece. Bulgaria will have to do the same with Greece and Turkey.

Then we'll see how things turn out.

[Workingman]

We are slightly out of tune, but all singing from the same song sheet.

We are full up and fed up. We want our illegals rounded up and deported. We want the flood stopped. We want those in Europe stopped. We want them rounded up and deported. Millions of us in Europe feel exactly the same way: in Sweden, Denmark, France, Austria, Czech Rep, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary and even Germany - though you will not see that if you rely on UK news services...... We are all pretty much united in all of those things despite the tugging at heart strings by EU politicians, the UN and the media.

But unless something is done they are only a 'wish list'; and nothing is being done. We, the majority, are not being listened to; and that is storing up problems for the future.

Suff, you are absolutely right that if one border closes another opening will be found. I said exactly the same thing the other day. We see it happening. Bulgaria id building a fence on its land border with Turkey. So what are the politicians doing? They are going to have, wait for it, an "emergency" meeting on the 23rd September: next Wednesday. That is another weekend for this to continue. For me that implicates the politicians in this crisis.

I agree that the illegals could go back south. Will they? Having 'invested' so much of their time and resources are they likely to go 'of their own free will', I think not. Are they being persuaded to do so in any way? No!

The reality is that they are here and we are doing little to dissuade them from coming and/or from staying.

All I am trying to get across is that two wrongs do not make a right and because of it there could be avoidable deaths.

I'm out.

[Suff]

All I am trying to get across is that two wrongs do not make a right and because of it there could be avoidable deaths.

I know you are and I would take that position too. If I did not believe that taking that action, instead of other direct action, would cause more deaths.

The reason I take the line I do of no camps, not aid and no sheltering, is to try and force the authorities to do the right thing the first time. Not after 20,000 have died trying to get out of Greece and another 10,000 die in the camps because there is simply too many people to support easily in that cold and little will to give them better accommodation than their own poor people have.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I believe my way would save more lives. Otherwise I'd be campaigning for relief all along the way, not just when they finally make it to Serbia or Croatia or whatever Balkan country they do end up in. All these NGO's who are supporting the immigrants do is encourage even more to risk their lives...

[Rodo]

The latest on Sky is that Croatia have sent 19 buses of migrants to Hungary, but they have been blocked at the border.