Not before Ine.

[Diflower]

I'm afraid that my views are somewhat extreme in this regard, in that I am not very happy
in allowing any foreigners into this country, unless there is a definite need to do so.

I'm sure we would be a much happy community if, in the past, we had discouraged all these
foreigners from coming here. I can't remember seeing any when I was a child.

Who's stupid idea was it to open our borders to all these aliens?

Aggers' s post was what I was referring to.
By his own admission it's quite a long time since he was a child, and is suggesting we should then have been 'discouraging all these foreigners'
Of course the Vikings is carrying it a bit far, but I am well aware of all those signs in the 1950s and '60s (mostly in London but actually nationally) on pubs, shops and flats to let 'No blacks, no Irish'.
What's the difference between then and now, was that right or wrong then?

[Workingman]

But I did also really mean, how far back do you want to go?

Where exactly should it have stopped?

Any time you want.

What pi55es me off is that some groups really do want to challenge our Britishness in the way they would not challenge Frenchness, Spanishness, Italianness and Germanness.

We, somehow, get singled out by those who want us to be outsiders as not being a 'nation' of pure breeds. Well, neither are any Europeans, if you go back far enough.

It is all academic, because we are what we are today, now. We no longer have pure bred Europeans because of many hundreds of years of wars, migration and integration.

Like it or not we British are Europeans.

[Diflower]

Wm I have no argument with any of your posts about this and agree with most of what you've said
It's never easy to get across exactly what you mean, but that's kind of what I meant, about diluted nationalities.

[Suff]

Like it or not we British are Europeans.

Not really. Not in the way most of the rest of them are. If we want to look at places which are kind of similar to the UK, we'd have to look at Ireland and Norway and Iceland. Notably two of the three are not in the EU.

What do I mean?

Just have a look. How many of the countries of the EU were what they are today even 200 years ago. Not Germany, not Italy, not half the Eastern Europeans. France is one of the closest and if you go to France and ask for a form to fill in for the local government you will get it in ONE language and ONE language only. Can't cope in French? Tough, learn! Ditto Germany.

Notably it was France and the Netherlands who voted NO to the constitution and it was on Nationality grounds more than any other.

Whilst Italy and Germany and, especially, Belgium which was created after the Napoleonic wars; want to give up their nationality and their borders it is no real surprise. They simply don't have the consistency of country and government that the older nations do. They don't mind being "member states" rather than "Nation States", look at Germany it's already Federal and some of those federal states have a better representation in Brussels than the UK does. OK they can't veto, but they can influence and they do.

So the UK is foundering under immigration. Both legal and illegal. Most of these immigrants couldn't care less for UK values or norms or even culture. We bend over backwards to subjugate our culture to theirs, make allowances for their languages rather than ensuring they learn ours.

Let's be brutally honest here. The only reason we are becoming European is because politicians are forcing it and driving it down people's throats.

The ONE major theme heard in France before the vote on the Constitution was "WE are NOT European citizens we are FRENCH Citizens". They might as well have gone the whole hog and said "We are not European we are French". But they can't seem to see the logic of that.

Yes the UK will eventually become European. Because we'll be owned by Europe, run by Europe and our business will belong to Europe.

That is what being "European" means in the way we are going about it and that is what we should aim to avoid. I have no confidence that people will avoid it by voting Leave this year.

In my experience most people say "We are European" with absolutely no clue as to what a "European" is. No European politician would EVER come out with the phrase "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country". There are good English idiomatic expressions to define Europe and the European.

"Eye to the main chance"
"Devil take the hindmost"

Just look at a classic "European" situation. Angela Merkel, annoyed by Orban and the press he was getting to the detriment of Germany, stands up and says that Germany can take 800,000 of these "poor misplaced people". Triggering a landslide of humanity which poured into Europe, overriding the Greek border controls and most of the borders in the Balkans except for Hungary who just kept on building their fence even faster and even longer.

At the same time Merkel was engaged in a "negotiation" to try and parcel out the 160,000 refugees who were already a problem. The main objective of this allocation was to set a quota which each country was to take for all those new refugees. Merkel was using the commission, council and parliament to try and put EU pressure on all the countries to take these 160k.

In short Merkel never intended to take 800k immigrants, Merkel intended to bring in 800k and then forcibly shift them to countries based on the quotas set for the 160k existing problem.

It might have even worked if it were not for the massive numbers who suddenly appeared trying to cram their way into Germany and the realisation of the rest of the countries that they had been scammed. At which point it all went to pieces and Merkel was stuck with the mess she had made. Of course Merkel then complains to her own government that the rest of the EU is "not doing their part" which is why she is having to "do so much more".

Welcome to Europe and being "European".

It is no surprise that I would vote Leave even though it would harm me, personally, more than most in the UK.

Perhaps I've got it wrong? Perhaps the country I would harm myself to save is already beyond saving? We already have sponsorship for French citizenship from some very influential people in the town we live in. If I thought that my country was just going to be some slave to the EU doing what they say whilst everyone else does what they want, I might actually consider taking it up; even if I did have to spend a year in intensive schooling to learn enough French...

I certainly wouldn't do it for any other reason.

[Workingman]

Oh, do be brief, Suff.

I am European because that is what I am. I am no different from a Frenchman a Spaniard, a Greek or a German. I live in a place called Europe and down the centuries we have fought many wars, but because of the EU, and its predecessors, we have come together. Politicians are certainly not forcing me, or anyone else, to be European, it's my choice.

Go look at a 200 yr-old map. Europe as we know it today did not exist. The past is the past and there is no point in dwelling upon it, though history does often tell us something. If anything we need to move on from Empires, be they Roman or British, and move to the future.

[KateLMead]

I have been ranting about B Liar since he went into Iraq, the man should be behind bars, and his wife along with him. I stated that he would create a blood bath in the Middle East and elsewhere it was not difficult to predict. He opened those pearly gates from spite knowing he would lose his position of Prime Minister. He now has his eye on one of the top positions in Brussels .

[medsec222]

We need to get out of the EU as soon as possible. I don't care if it takes 'two years' for us to sort ourselves out. If there is a price to be paid to reclaim our Sovereignty and democracy then it is a price worth paying. Regarding immigrants, I am totally against the influx of EU workers as I prefer the Australian policy of the points system. Of importance is the fact that many EU migrants are prepared to work for low wages and this keeps wages down for the low paid in this country. Also, as I understand it, they are entitled to tax credit top ups to bring up the level of their pay. UK residents should be taking on these jobs and employers should be paying them the living way. This is the way to raise the standard of living for low paid workers in this country.

[KateLMead]

We need to get out of the EU as soon as possible. I don't care if it takes 'two years' for us to sort ourselves out. If there is a price to be paid to reclaim our Sovereignty and democracy then it is a price worth paying. Regarding immigrants, I am totally against the influx of EU workers as I prefer the Australian policy of the points system. Of importance is the fact that many EU migrants are prepared to work for low wages and this keeps wages down for the low paid in this country. Also, as I understand it, they are entitled to tax credit top ups to bring up the level of their pay. UK residents should be taking on these jobs and employers should be paying them the living way. This is the way to raise the standard of living for low paid workers in this country.

I agree Medsec. We are in a cleft stick..I do however think we must consider what is happening "now" and do something constructive with respect to the waifs caught up in this terrible situation in Calais and elsewhere..we are caught up in that situation that is beyond our control.. Yes ! Out of The damnable EU, however we have urgent decisions to make "now " regarding the the little ones caught up in this terrible crisis in Calais and elsewhere, surely No One can dismiss these innocent's, many of whom have died.in my opinion we are at war and have been since B'Liar invaded Iraq, as in the last war we are facing thousands of evacuees about whom decisions must be made as to their and indeed this countries future.and who will, regardless of whether they are the enemy, good and bad will be given sanctuary.

[Suff]

Anyone who has made it to Calais is not a waif without means. Those are in Turkey, Syria and Iraq.

Take them from Syria by all means, but do not take them from Calais. All that does is put more children at horrific risk.

[cromwell]

The problem withmass immigration from the EU is that it depresses wages for UK workers. It's simple supply and demand. The more workers there are chasing jobs, the lower the employer can keep his wages.

That said, most of the Poles come here to work.

What incenses me is the ones who come here with no intention of finding work, and the ones who can't get work because they have no skills to get one. Why are we letting these people in?

Cameron is in no way serious about reducing immigration. If he was, he could halt all but a fraction of non-EU immigration - but he doesn't, despite all his fine words.