Nice to see somone in the FT see's Brexit the way I do

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Nice to see somone in the FT see's Brexit the way I do

Postby Suff » 06 Jul 2016, 06:20

In October 1996, as the launch of the euro came closer, I argued that: “The choice looming for the UK is between being inside the European Monetary Union and being outside . . . It will become a choice between having a voice within the governing arrangements of Europe and not having one. In time, it will be between being inside the EU and being outside it.”

I concluded, for this reason, that the UK should consider joining. Shortly thereafter I changed my mind, arguing that the UK could not thrive inside it. Subsequent events have confirmed this judgment. But my earlier concern has also been vindicated.



Exactly what I said. The EU IS the Euro (in financial terms) and the UK cannot thrive within it. In this case my contention was always that anyone who did not take the Euro would, eventually, be forced to leave. Not actually forced to leave but economically forced to leave because they would not submit.

Just like dealing with the EU from outside, dealing with the Eurozone from the outside puts the outsider at a disadvantage. The huge advantage to the country outside the EU is that the other 180 countries and 4 fifths of the world economy can be traded with and, at the very best, on a level playing field.

This was part of my contention all the time during the referendum and the FT spent all it's time telling me I was wrong. The other part was that the UK was no longer a country in the EU. I wonder if I will see all the countries of the EU publicly vanish in my lifetime. Or whether they will hang on to the fallacy of Nationhood well into the century?

Then the article goes on

First, the UK is a neighbour, a market, a financial centre, a security partner and a link to the wider world.


Sorry I thought the UK had the same world relevance as Guernsey???? What you mean we were lied to? Never!

Followed by

Thus the core challenge for the EU is to make it work — and be seen to work — for the benefit of the great majority of its citizens.


What? You mean it doesn't work today and it would still not be working if the UK had not left??? Does the phrase "sold a pup" mean anything to you??

But even here the writer doesn't understand what the EU really is.

The failure of the EU lies not in its political structures but in its policies. It must secure legitimacy via practical achievements rather than further erosion of national autonomy.


You can only have national policies when you are a nation. We are no longer a Nation we are a "member" state. Read the treaties dear author. When Brexit happens we will be a nation again. Although what it's worth will depend on how much more damage the Bank of England governor does to our economy and our standing in the world. Single Handedly, by taking pre-emptive action to a situation which did not exist at that time, he has caused the panic which never really emerged.

It is also really nice to know that

The paramount example of recent failure lies inside the eurozone. That has nothing to do with the UK. The sad truth is that, far from launching a period of prosperity, the euro has delivered a lengthy period of stagnation and massive divergences in living standards.


And

Even worse, between 2007 and 2016, real GDP per head is forecast to rise 11 per cent in Germany, stagnate in France and fall by 8 per cent and 11 per cent in Spain and Italy respectively.


Something I've been banging on about constantly. The EU plays only to it's strengths and "devil take the hindmost" is not an idiom, it's a mantra.

Finally the Author states

The EU is unlikely to gain the legitimacy that comes from democratic accountability: it is too big and diverse for that. The best route to legitimacy consists, instead, of managing the practical challenges it confronts. Dealing with migration is an extremely important and difficult practical challenge. But making the eurozone prosperous is indispensable. Brexit is a nuisance. The priority is a practical plan for widely shared economic growth.


Well that's all very nice and good. But if the Author had noted the President of the Commission demanding that ALL other countries in the EU join the Euro forthwith; without any reform, he would note that the EU is reverting to form without the interference of the UK. Notably that by bringing everyone into the Euro it is then not possible to compare the EU state differences between Euro and non Euro states. Thus simply burying the problem.

We're better off out. But the reality of that only emerges when we are faced with the actuality of exit. Those who tried to scare us into staying are now telling us why the EU has to reform. Yet they were telling us, only two weeks ago, that the EU was the best we can get and that it was better then being out. Not a word about inequalities or huge structural reform needed.

The lies will out and we're going to see a lot of lies unearthed over the next two years. But you will have to Look and Compare...
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Re: Nice to see somone in the FT see's Brexit the way I do

Postby Workingman » 07 Jul 2016, 11:56

And all this changes what, exactly? Nothing.

So some Leavers predicted some things, but they have not yet predicted the eventual outcomes of those things. They have actually been very quite as bits of bad news keep coming in - shares slide, £ slides, companies moving workers to the EU.

Polish the 20:20 hindsight goggles, lads and lasses, then come back in three, five or ten years, and see how much you are gloating. The lies of both sides should have all been identified by then, and the score will be = - =.

I have changed my mind about the Brexit negotiations. I said in another post that I wanted a mix from both sides and across parties. I now want all the negotiations to be done by Brexiters, and mainly from the Tories and UKIP. I want future generations to be able to point the finger. If Brexit works they get the bouquets, but if it fails, and it is conceivable, they take full responsibility.

It is a very close call.
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Re: Nice to see somone in the FT see's Brexit the way I do

Postby Suff » 07 Jul 2016, 12:37

There is a guy here at work who says "well the experts said it would happen and it has".

Clearly he does not usually watch the statements made by head bankers and banking insitutions.

Draghi striking terror into the Euro market. The US FED controlling markets with a few words. Statements of intent of actions to happen 3 months down the line causing immediate market impact.

Now allign that with what the Remain group said what would happen. What Carney has done. From a position of market impact, but a slight recovery over the weekend as everyone took pasue, he has almost single handedly talked the UK into one of the largest impacts to UK markets and the curerncy in my life. Huge actions to be "pre-emptive", not in 3 months time but immediately. No time for the markets to process it, only time to react.

Let's put it this way. The central banks reacted less to the financial crisis than Carney has reacted to a VOTE. Note a VOTE, not even leaving. Leaving will be 2 1/4 years away yet.

The FT may moan about "talking the markets down". But they have done almost nothing but. Am I surprrised at how bad it has been? Not really. there was always the potential for market instability. Am I surprised that the "establishement" is making it infinitely worse? Yes, it's not their job and they will be judged on it when all the histrionicts are over. The market data don't lie and when the analysis is taken of the stresses and the pressures and the actions, they will be judged to be provocative and not proportional. In fact, poliiitical. Brown was supposed to have stopped the BOE being political. What a stupid idea, centall banking is all about politics.....
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Re: Nice to see somone in the FT see's Brexit the way I do

Postby Workingman » 07 Jul 2016, 12:59

Leave won. It is time to stop banging on about the 'hows' and 'whys' and 'predictions' for their view of the future. Anybody can predict anything at any time, but it is time to be getting on delivering UKtopia - that was the promise.

Many Leavers also promised us Brexit the day after Independence Day. It is long past the time to get started unless, of course, it was just another of Leave's lies.

If Brexit is such a great idea why are we not hearing calls for Swexit and Nexit from the Swedes and Dutch? It is because they are playing the 'wait and see' long game. Unlike us they are not prepared to accept 'not sure/fantasy', at least not at this time.
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Re: Nice to see somone in the FT see's Brexit the way I do

Postby Suff » 07 Jul 2016, 14:13

I was no talking about brexit and get on with it. I was talking about remainers talking the economy down. If this is not talking the economy down then every word I have ever seen written about central banks influencing the economy is a lie.

And, gopd question. Why are we not getting on with it? Because the people in power are almost all remainers and they have blocked it whilst they talk the economy into a spiral.

As fot Holland, Sweden and Denmark calling for a referendum? The calls have been there but no independence party in the EU has the same power today as Farage had at the last election.

YET.

Juncker has already called for forcing the remaining states into the Euro now the UK is no longer blocking. If you know, have lived with and worked with the Danes and the Swedes you will know just where that will lead.

I personally believe that Brexit will drive the Sweden Democrats to earlier gains and you know I've been watching that for years now.
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Re: Nice to see somone in the FT see's Brexit the way I do

Postby Workingman » 07 Jul 2016, 15:00

Suff, it was not a personal dig, it was aimed at Leavers in general. I read many comments and the vast majority of Leavers are gloating at their win and telling Remainers how they did it and why. Some of the language and insults used would make a submarine crew blush.

And if those Leavers are being blocked from getting Brexit going then they should be knocking the doors down and demanding action, but they are not. Leading members of Leave's campaign, some of whom are trying to become leaders of our two biggest political parties, are now wanting a period of stability.

That is not what they were selling to the mugs who voted for Brexit only two weeks ago. They were being sold Independence Day, 24 June 2016. Now it is Independence Day soon, immigration control lite and some extra money for the NHS, but be patient. Leave campaign's lies were every bit as big as Remains, but they worked. That is because it is a lot easier to promote a possible positive and have it believed in than it is to promote an almost certain negative and have that believed.
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Re: Nice to see somone in the FT see's Brexit the way I do

Postby Suff » 07 Jul 2016, 15:16

Agreed. I hated all the lies.

However something interesting has turned up. The markets are begging Carney not to cut rates on Monday. They are putting forward solid reasons why it would not help at all. Leaving rates on hold will put a floor under the £ and allow the more risky investers to make bog profits. Where the big profits are the solid investors follow.

If on the other hand Carney cuts rates we will know that he is more concerned with his reputation and the blame game than the UK economy, jobs and the value of the £
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