Are grammar schools making a comeback?

[Workingman]

Education Secretary, Justine Greening, and the PM, are said to be "open minded" about the subject. This has led to outbreaks of apoplexy and the frothing of mouths in some quarters. We are, apparently, heading back to Victorian times.

I do not get the concerns. We now have academies majoring in science, sport or the arts; what is wrong in having some majoring in a decent education?

For decades the comprehensive and academy systems have done damage to those who are academically gifted without lifting up, in any meaningful way, those who are not. Everyone has been "taught to the middle" with those at the top and bottom left bored, or disruptive, or both.

While they are looking at grammar schools they might also want to look at Universities and their degrees, but perhaps not do anything just yet.

[Kate1933]

I cannot stand the name Academies, another Americanism ?
My grandson has gained a place in a top school, we are thrilled. Discipline is paramount. The journey to the school takes over an hour so he is up at 6.30 for breakfast and the school bus. It is not a public or private school, but one that only accepts those who are recommended, and one of numerous run on the same principles as Grammar schools.that are recommended by previous schools governors. ( I think I have got this right.)

[Kaz]

Grammar schools never went away here in Gloucester, we still have them! There are two boys' grammars and two girls', with a couple of them having mixed 6th forms. I think they are an excellent idea, we need more social mobility these days here in the UK, there are far too many privately educated youngsters 'hogging' the top professions.

I also think that looking at universities might not be a bad idea, degrees have been totally devalued. If everyone has a degree, what is the merit of having one? It would be the same if nobody did

Congratulations to your grandson, Kate

[cromwell]

I'm a bit conflicted about this. I went to a grammar school; in the 60's and 70's we seemed to have far better social mobility than we do now and I think the grammars were responsible for a lot of that. From memory more than 50% of Oxbridge students were from the state sector in the late 60's, which certainly isn't the case now.

Grammar schools worked then, but would they work now? A lot of lies have been told about the grammar schools, the main one of which is the one that people who didn't get to one were "condemned" to a life on the scrapheap, or some such.

What most of my friends in the village who went to the secondary modern were condemned to was leaving school on the Friday and starting work on the Monday! I think a lot of school leavers these days would like the chance to be "condemned" like that!

Because certainly until the late 70's we were a country of if not full employment, then very nearly so; and not just "MacJobs" either. You could get an apprenticeship at the pit; electrician, fitter etc. There were many local engineering firms and mills. Now they have just about all gone.

So while it isn't true that kids were condemned back then, it might be truer now maybe?

[AggersAgain]

Not having any personal experience of a grammar school, I cannot say much on this subject.

At Elementary School, at the age of eleven, I had the opportunity of taking the '11-plus' Exam,
but decided not to, as my older sister had done so, and I didn't fancy having to spend so much
time doing homework. Instead, at fourteen I had an apprenticeship at an engineering firm and
by attending Night School and Day Release Courses at an Engineering College became qualified
as a Mechanical Engineer and, subsequently, holder of a series of senior management positions.

I would imagine that a similar method of progression would still be possible today, and if so it
makes me wonder if grammar schools are really that necessary after all.

[Kate1933]

I went to numerous schools, was anything but a good example, always in trouble, up to something, I hated maths, still do, cannot do my seven times table, I excelled at music art and English (compositions /literature) lived in my own fantasy world, had a disrupted childhood that could have been something to do with my dislike of most "lessons" and the teachers who taught them.

[Workingman]

Aggers, I am assuming that we did similar things on our way to our Mech Eng qualifications.

First we will have been a grease monkey to a skilled man learning the 'basic' basics before going on to do a proper apprenticeship. From there we will have done a mix of theory and practice, at college and work, as we went up through the grades.

Unfortunately those avenues are now rare. Modern apprenticeships offer little more than the 'grease monkey' level; and job description inflation means that what are little more than mechanics are now service engineers. It has all been a con to make it look as thought the UK has a highly skilled workforce.

[Kaz]

Best case scenario, IMO, would be grammars for the academic, and vocationally based courses and training, such as Aggers described, for other children. At the moment we are trying to fit all the pegs into the round holes, whereas many of the children are square pegs or triangles - just as gifted in other spheres, but not given the help and support to find out just where they will excel!

[Suff]

My #1 Grandson was at private school until two years before his A levels. It was a specialist school for younger children but didn't take them on t their GCSE.

After that he went to Carres Grammar and went from the top player in the Rugby team with a fantastic work ethic and a First in Mathematics in his future (private school estimate based on exam results), to a computer game addicted layabout with average GCSE and didn't even bother to do his A levels and he even stopped playing Rugby and Carres is one of the best in Lincolnshire. I know they were a nightmare to play when I played them.

So Grammars are not always the best choice especially when the child has been in extremely good and structured education. They may call them Grammar's but they are not a patch on what Grammars really were in the 60's.

If they just switch the name, they're going to get the same mediocre education until the entire teaching hierarchy changes and that will take 3 decades and that's more than any one government is ever going to get.

That, over and above everything else, is why our education is failing our children. Educational policies take decades to mature and governments have an attention span of years. it's constant whiplash and it's become endemic in education. I have absolutely no hopes of any changes making it better until the expectations are realistic and they are not measured by years, they are measured by intakes from beginning to end. So it would take at least 12 years to see the final end result of one systemic change.

I just ignore all education news and moves. Most of them only make things worse and the bigger the change the more damage they do.