Do they now feel justified?

[Suff]

Those brexiters who agonised over whether or not to vote to leave, but voted to leave in the end?

Blair stands up on TV And tells the people they have no clue what they are doing and that the vote was not for "Bexit at Any Cost"

Well, firstly, absolutely _anything_ Blair says is suspect. You cannot believe a word the man says, only the intent behind it.

As for not voting for Brexit at any cost? The voters were told the UK would go to hell in a handbasket immediately after the vote. They were told that there would be punitive sanctions on them in taxes, that the economy would tank that they would lose jobs and that the end of the world, as we know it, would descend upon us the morning after the vote.

Those who voted accepted that risk as an acceptable cost.

Now, 6 months later, with an economy still growing and virtually _none_ of the predicted risks coming home to roost, except, perhaps, the slowdown of EU citizens coming to the UK, how can Blair possibly hope to try and revive "project fear".

Honestly I can't decide whether the people should laugh at him or stone him to death???

[Workingman]

... how can Blair possibly hope to try and revive "project fear".

Because there are those in the media and business and politics who think that Brexit will be a disaster; and whether we like it or not they are going to keep plugging away just as Leavers would have done had they 'lost' the referendum.

I do not like it any more than you do, Suff, but this is what the referendum brought us and we have to live with it.

[Suff]

I'n not so sure that the Leavers would have been quite so vociferous. Leavers have been over the decades, slowly toiling to get another referendum and make their case that we just don't belong. I really do think that if they had lost then the backbiting would have been limited and that they would have got on with the business of working towards another referendum at some time in the future. At least Cameron gave them the ability to block any future legislation like the Lisbon Treaty (A.K.A the constitution lite), via referendum. That was a real win for them and they could have lived with that.

However the remainers truly believed that the status quo would continue. That everyone would see it their way because it was better for them. Had remain won then the Leavers would have lost nothing but an opportunity. Because Leave won the Remainers have been dropped into uncertainty, they are going to have to work twice as hard and can no longer just keep on with the same old gravy train regardless of the cost to the rest of the country.

The thing is that the remoaners (not all remainers), are finally beginning to show their true colours. That they care nothing for anything but themselves and little or nothing about their country and the rest of the people in it. Blair is playing to these people. Eseentially telling them that they don't live in a democracy and to use that to overrule the majority and take, by force, what they want.

This is not to say that there are lots of legitimate Remainers out there who don't believe that the EU is better for the country. There are. But they are not the one's going down Blair's line. They're the one's saying "well I don't agree with you but you voted for it, so let's make it work".

[Workingman]

Oh, I do beg to differ. Part of the reason for the referendum was predicated on the whinges of Leavers: We never had a vote, we need a vote. We didn't vote for the EU; I wasn't born in '75, give me a vote. I weren't old enough, I need a vote, go on, give me a vote, pretty please. And so it went, on and on and on.

And if Leave had lost it would still be going on: That wasn't the question we wanted. Give us the question we want. The referendum was only advisory, give us another go, and another, and another.

Neither side has come up smelling of roses on this issue, and there are a lot of pathetic ones on both sides of the argument. There is not a molehill of moral high ground for either side to claim and we all need to get over, and get on, with it.

[TheOstrich]

Blair says, effectively, that when we voted in the Referendum, we voted for a concept without knowing what the actual outcome would be.

A bit like the vote in 1997, then. Pity we can't roll that one back, either .....

[Suff]

[quote="TheOstrich"]Blair says, effectively, that when we voted in the Referendum, we voted for a concept without knowing what the actual outcome would be.quote]

Yeah right.

So let me see.

Leavers voted for 350m per week more into the budget and a serious reduction in EU people coming to the UK.
Remainers voted to avoid catastrophic economic downturn, immediate recession, higher taxes, falling property values, the total collapse of the UK financial infrastructure and just about everything else inbetween. In fact the two things the Remain campaign didn't predict were nuclear war and impact from a celestial body......

There were, as WM said at the time, very good arguments for staying in the EU. Arguments which were never laid out. Only Project fear.

Now Blair is saying that the people voted for Leave because of a fairy story told by the Leave campaign? In fact what he's really saying is that the people voted for Leave because the Remain campaign were not able to frighten them enough and now we need to change that because letting the majority have what they want is bad...

The man is Amoral.

[Workingman]

Oh how I hate to agree with Blair, but he is actually right - partly.

We Remainers knew exactly what we were voting for - the status quo. The detail was known.

You Leavers did not have clue, and still don't. Leave was some nebulous entity where the grass would be greener - we would get our Sovereignty back. Apart from that it had no form, and still doesn't. It is a dream world where everything will be fine and dandy, but without any real world claims to back it up.

I do honestly hope it works for the UK, but I am not convinced.

[Suff]

I do honestly hope it works for the UK, but I am not convinced.

It will be what we make of it. If we put all our energy into denying reality we'll wind up like Greece.

I'm hoping that this will all go away once A50 is triggered. But I'm cautious about that. The HOL is going to try and hold this up. I hope that May rams it through the commons again and again, without changes, until everyone gets the message.

Fortunately the two Labour by elections are next Thursday. It's looking like the results of that are going to be enough to frighten the hell out of the political classes. We can only hope.

[Workingman]

Suff, please get over the Labour party thing.

This now goes to the HoL where there are 252 Tories, not all of them Brexit supporters. There are 178 CBs, 202 Labs, 102 Libs and 45 others, plus 26 Bishops.

If it fails in the Lords it will not be because Labour won, but because all sorts of others voted against.

I would like to reform the Lords, but as things stand they do have the right to amend, even if us plebs disagree with their amendments.

I would like a smaller house of elected members, but hey-ho.

[Suff]

WM they don't have the right to "amend", the HOL has the right to propose changes to the bill. The commons do not have to accept those changes and can vote to send the bill back to the HOL unchanged.

I think this would be a good thing because it would serve notice on the HOL that any legislation to change the HOL could also be pushed through against their will.

I also expect the Labour line on a 3 line whip to change after the 23rd. Wouldn't that be an interesting view on things??

No I won't get over Labour. I know that there at significant numbers of Tories who don't want to leave the EU. But I also know that every concession we negotiated with the EU was created by the Tories and given away by Labour.

I have not forgiven and will not forgive them, for the Lisbon treaty. Which, by the way, does not have an Article 50. That article is in the "treaty on the European Union", otherwise know as the constitution, which was brought into power in a modified form by the Lisbon Treaty without the consent of the people of the UK and against the wishes of the people of the UK. Had the UK been given the referendum which it should have been given, then it would never have happened.

Any party that does that to the UK, in the way it was done, does not deserve to hold any power in the UK and should be denied representation. That's my view and, now, for the rest of my life, that will never change. As far as I'm concerned that single act led to the situation we are in today and Labour is totally and completely to blame for it. To me it was inevitable that the signing of the Lisbon treaty and the relegation of the UK from a country to a "member state" of the EU would lead, eventually, to a referendum on leaving the EU.

Labour, prior to Blair, never won more than a single term in Government. Clearly the people of the UK did not trust them enough. The first time that they won a large majority and 3 terms in office, that mistrust was clearly justified.

Cameron, for all his faults, campaigned on blocking any more movement of sovereignty without the will of the people. Cameron delivered on exactly what he said he would. But, sadly, the horse was already bolted, sovereignty was gone. It is no mistake that the Lisbon Treaty states:

WHO, having exchanged their full powers, found in good and due form,

This situation led to Brexit. The Tory leadership supported Remain but a significant group of Tories supported Leave. Labour, leadership and the vast majority of the MP's, supported Remain. Only a few rebels supported Leave. The result of the referendum was a rather rude surprise to Labour.

So, no, I can't really hide my pleasure at Labour being punished at the polls for the stance it took in the referendum, as a whole and the actions it has taken since.

So. Really. I think that it is not just Labour but also the HOL which is about to get it's marching orders. After all, May, by refusing to accept that the will of the people can be denied by the political elite, simply cannot lose by hammering this through.

I was right in that the party would not accept any change at all to a two paragraph bill in the Commons. Notice has been served. The people have spoken and as far as the government is concerned it IS binding and we just need to get on with it.

Let's see how this plays out. I'd love the HOL to reject it before the 23rd but I can't see that lot working fast enough, honestly.