As the sand runs out in the Brexit

[Kaz]

You know, Remoaner is such a sneering term! Almost half of those who bothered to vote, voted to remain, and did so because they sincerely believed that it was for the best. Brexiteer is not insulting, so why do those who got their way, ie the Brexiteers feel the need to be rude? Just wondering.........

[Suff]

Actually Kaz I have two terms for those who left.

Remainer, for those who thought it would be better to remain and voted that way. I even use that term for people who wanted to stay, didn't like the vote and, on occasion are want to say "you'll regret it", or stronger terms.

Remoaner I reserve for those who are actively determined to sabotage the Brexit process, by any means, even if it means damaging the country and causing decades of harm to the UK.

When I use Remoaner I'm not sneering. I'm bloody angry. I would have accepted a Remain vote, I might have said "you'll live to regret it" but I would have accepted it and the changes and what I see as the damage, it would cause in the UK over the long term. Remoaners don't care about you, me or the welfare of the UK. They just want to get their own way to suit their own ideology or their own cravings for power.

I hope that clarifies what terminology I'm using Kaz, I've never classed you, or those on VV who would have preferred to stay, as Remoaners.

There are also those Brexiteers who are way to the far right of the Brexit debate. Those who thought we could just unilaterally leave the EU with no impact at all to the UK without triggering Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union. Those who believe we should just shut the borders to the EU totally. Those who are entirely clueless as to how our country gets and uses both money and investments, but believe that the UK would not suffer if we damaged that.

Sadly there has been no attempt to classify them with a word. So I'm not able to balance Remoaner with something else.... Sorry.

[Workingman]

Suff, I am not being contradictory.

The EU does not have to bend. It is the UK leaving the club and 'the committee' is looking after the interests of its remaining members. It cannot be seen to be giving away special privileges to the leaving member, especially when that member is going to set itself up in competition with the club. We might see that as the EU cutting its nose of to spite its face but there is not a damned thing we can do about it - it is its nose.

It is for the UK to negotiate "its" best deal, whatever that is. We are consistently told that "no deal is better than a bad deal" so we have to assume our negotiators are doing just that - going for a good deal. We also have to assume that they have the freedom to negotiate without constantly having to phone HQ for permission... Unfortunately we have no clear indication that is the case, but what we do know for definite is that, atm, HQ is behaving like a bun fight in a public school refectory.

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that "No Deal" is what we are eventually going to get. I could also be called an old cynic for starting to think that both sides are going through the motions, playing the game, so that both sides can save a bit of face when negotiations eventually break down. We cannot just walk off to WTO rules and tell the EU to 'foxtrot oscar' as that really would be a cliff edge, and for similar reasons the EU cannot slam the door on us... it will be done gently over the remaining 500 days or so.

Of course I could be wrong, there could be a miracle.....................

[Workingman]

I would not stress too much about it, Kaz. Many of us "Remoaners" have hijacked it for our own use anyway.

What I do find very distressing is the amount of bile spat out by some members on both sides of the argument. There is a real undercurrent of 'violence' by some keyboard warriors, but I suspect they would be ever so polite face-to-face - at least I hope that is the case.

It has always been about but it appears to have got worse since the advent of unsocial media.

[Workingman]

It might have looked as though I had jumped the gun when I wrote that negotiations might fail, but since then a few things have come to light.

Firstly, Barnier is reported to have told representatives of the other 27 EU countries that his negotiators are discussing the likelihood of the talks collapsing.

"It's not my option, but it's a possibility. Everyone needs to plan for it, member states and businesses alike. We too are preparing for it technically."

That comes hot on the heels of the EU giving the UK a two-week deadline to clarify key issues.

Secondly, The Sunday Times has reported that a letter is doing the rounds calling for Mrs May to be replaced. Apparently it has 40 Conservative MPs ready to sign it and that is just eight short of the number required to force a leadership contest. It comes at a bad time for her. She has just lost two heavyweight pro Brexit Ministers and there are rumours that Gove and Johnson have sent her a letter laying out what they want Brexit to be. That will not go down well with pro Remain MPs especially if they feel that she is likely to bow to such pressure.

[Kaz]

Oh well, I said how I feel about it anyway!

[Suff]

And there I was going to write about this and I saw two different threads. One, from Reuters reported that the Davis said the EU had agreed to go forwards without a figure, into the trade talks. One article.

The second thread was about Barnier talking about the EU preparing for the collapse of the talks. Dozens of posts by dozens of papers opposed to Brexit.

Let me put this simply. The only thing required to prevent the collapse of the talks is for the EU to _start_ negotiating and _stop_ demanding.

If they won't alter their stance then, obviously, the talks will fail. However the EU is trying to use this to bring down May's government. Personally I doubt it is going to work.

The most telling thing about the whole situation is that the EU never doubted that the UK would cave to their demands. Never doubted that we would return, cowed and beaten, to the negotiating table to accept whatever terms the EU would lay down.

We, the UK have been faced with the demand "Stand and Deliver". To which we have said NO. Whereby highlighting the fact that the highwayman of these negotiations is holding a rubber pistol, whereas the UK carriage is filled with rather large and intimidating men.

It is very clear that virtually nobody in the EU even paid more than lip service to the possibility that the UK would leave without a deal. Now they are facing that reality and it is not a comfort to them.

We are seeing an increasing tendency for EU MEP's to have a real go at Barnier and the EU. Do they see the UK as incompetent or disorganised? No they see the EU as vengeful and overbearing and working to derail any deal with the UK. These MEP's represent trade interests in the EU (especially Germany), who are going to be hit pretty hard if this falls apart.

No it is the sole competency of the UK press to do the UK government down.

I am sitting here quietly hoping that there will be no 11th hour rally, that Barnier will have to go back and admit that he has been unable to brow beat the UK into submission. Let us see how comfortable the cabal of 27 are when they face going into 2018 without either the money they so desperately want from the UK nor the trade deal they all rely on to milk money out of the UK.

Slowly reality is dawning on the EU that London is not just the EU centre of financial clearing and fundraising. It is the GLOBAL centre for that and if the EU wants to raise money on Global markets, it's going to have to go to London With the CEO of Deutsche Bank admitting that far from 74,000 employees moving to the EU, it is more likely to be 74, the scare stories lose some of their power.

Let the sands of time run out I say. Then we'll see who has the real impetus to negotiate. After all we only have one parliament to pass the deal. the 27? Not our problem.