Finally a senior government minister has done it.

[Suff]

The independent on James Hunt and the single market.

Spot the admission..

“And what we are saying is that we want to achieve frictionless trade but by agreement between two sovereign bodies the United Kingdom and the European Union.”

That is the first time, ever, I have seen a senior politician in the EU refer to the EU as a sovereign body. It is true, but it is never publicly admitted.

[Workingman]

Well now, that changes everything. Hold the Brexit process until us Remainers let it sink in!

Or.....

It is just a meaningless feel-good statement from a Brexit supporting minister to try to prevent any more Leavers from drifting away: 'It's our sovereignty v their sovereignty, chaps, keep the faith.'

More tea vicar?

[Suff]

There are moments in time when things change.

This is one of them. Of course we can just dismiss it, call it an aberration, ignore it, dumb it down.

Trump, in the way he won his election, changed politics and the way politicians get elected in a fundamental and permanent way.

Calling the EU a Sovereign Body has been totally verboten for decades now. Things have changed. We are now allowed to say things from the outside view, rather than always being forced to say things from the inside view.

I like it. It is refreshing.

If, however, you want to remain in the EU, it is threatening. So let's not talk about it. Just like all those other times when all the politicians agreed not to talk about it.....

When the furious debates were going on in France about the constitution, one thread emerged very strongly. "We are FRENCH citizens, not EUROPEAN citizens". This was in response to the whole plethora of acts which attempted to enshrine their EUness without one single Act to enshrine their Frenchness...

Years later, after the Lisbon treaty updated the treaties on union and functioning of the union, one tenet of the French psyche was that they were losing their identity and Frenchness....

I see this as a step on the way. The language has changed. The viewpoint has changed. I am very sensitive to this as I live in a sea of "language" all day long and have to swim in a sea of sharks, keeping my head above water by understanding how hungry the sharks are by their "language"

[Workingman]

Calling the EU a Sovereign Body has been totally verboten for decades now.

Absolute horsepoo. The Lisbon Treaty was the cornerstone of creating the EU, a 'sovereign union body' of sovereign states. Brexiteers have been fulminating about that since the day it was signed and there is not a law enacted anywhere, not one, preventing them from doing that.

We remainers saw it coming and were happy with it, you leavers also saw it coming and did not like it, but it was never hidden.

BTW I have also lived and worked in the EU / EEC and have yet to meet someone from France. Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc who sees themselves as anything but French, German, Dutch or Belge. They still believe in their sovereignty and nationality, and why not, they still have them - always did, as did /do we in the UK.

[TheOstrich]

They still believe in their sovereignty and nationality, and why not, they still have them - always did, as did /do we in the UK.

Yes, WM - but for how much longer? The EU under Juncker and Selmyar want to move rapidly towards federalisation; and is not Macron is also touting the same?

How is your ordinary citizen of France. Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc going to stop that?

It's (one reason) why we Brexiteers voted as we did.

[cromwell]

Yes, WM - but for how much longer? The EU under Juncker and Selmyar want to move rapidly towards federalisation; and is not Macron is also touting the same?

How is your ordinary citizen of France. Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc going to stop that?

It's (one reason) why we Brexiteers voted as we did.

The citizens of the Netherlands and France rejected the EU Constitution (much to the surprise of their political masters) in their referendums of 2005.

They were duly ignored and the EU constitution was cut and pasted into the Lisbon Treaty of 2009 - which they did not get a vote on! And which the BBC has since referred to as "One of the EU's main constitutional documents".

Before the Dutch and French referenda Jean-Claude Junker (now President of the European Commission) said “If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,” . (Towards Federalism).
In other words, whatever the people want doesn't matter, we will do as we, the EU heirarchy, want.

And that's why I voted to leave.

[Suff]

It's (one reason) why we Brexiteers
And that's why I voted to leave.

It is the reason I point this out every time I see it.

Many remainers voted for the status quo because the believed the BS that the UK remained a fully sovereign state in the EU. Many of those who believed it, then, still believe it now.

Once we have left and a few decades have passed (assuming the remainers and the fearful don't screw everything up and leave us tied to the rotting corpse of the EU), people will see the EU for what it is and the countries within it for what they are.

Everyone who still believes that the UK could be sovereign within the EU should read this wiki page.

They should look at the negotiations and actually read the press about what the other states in the EU are saying. Germany who is enraged with the way the Commission is negotiating with the UK. Not Merkel, note, but internal German companies and political bodies.

Lest anyone should get the wrong idea, we are negotiating with the EU Commission on leaving. We are not negotiating with the 27 states and the 27 states will be faced with EXACTLY the same choice as our government when a deal is made. Notably "Take it or Leave it". Because those 27 states have only slightly more power, in this situation, than our devolved assemblies in the UK. At least the EU27 have a veto.

If anyone who believes the UK can just quietly carry on in the EU as a sovereign nation, they should read the press about the EU, in the Middle East, trying to negotiate peace and cooperation. The EU, not France or Germany or the UK, but an actual EU minister (German now we're leaving), who is trying to do a US style job of negotiations. It was extremely interesting to read how the EU mission was being derailed by "member states" interests in the area. The "member states" being the UK and France.

Here's the rub WM.

If I'm wrong, we have to do a bit more work to keep our world image up. We have to work a bit harder to grow our economy and we have to get our heads out of our asses and start engaging with the rest of the world.

If you are wrong, then we become a vassal state, hostage to the jealousies and petty ire of 27 other states. Without recourse to anything other than backbiting and whinging. Left with only one recourse if we "don't like it". Namely to leave. The longer we put that decision off, the more painful and expensive it will become.

The Jesuits say "Give me a boy at 7 and I will show you the man". For the EU it is more like "give me a country for 70 years and I will show you the member state". Because after a few generations the massive inertia of the status quo takes over and it takes, quite literally, revolution to break us out of it.

Personally I thought that a democratic vote and decisive action was far, far, preferable to revolution. Maybe I'm wrong.

I do risk management for a living in my work.....

[Workingman]

Many remainers voted for the status quo because the believed the BS that the UK remained a fully sovereign state in the EU. Many of those who believed it, then, still believe it now.

Au contraire. We already knew that the UK was not a fully sovereign state; and all you leavers kept reminding us of that fact, ad nauseam. We put our hands up and said "Yes, we know!" then we got on with life.

It was you leavers, well some of you, for whom full sovereignty was the be all and end all. It must be terribly frustrating to see that full sovereignty drifting away way with every day of the negotiations that passes.

It is certainly frustrating for many of us, remainers and leavers alike, still not knowing what Leave will actually mean. All we know for sure is that we will be out come March the 30th next year because "strong and stable" told us so, unless...........

[Suff]

Ah, yes,

What Leave really means will be negotiated between the EU and the UK. Experience shows that if you go in with a clear and non negotiable position, with the EU, you'd better be willing to give up every damned thing you want and walk away with nothing. Because the EU will simply not back down unless they get a better deal than you do.

It is the remainers (MP's, press, think tanks, pressure goups), who absolutely refuse to walk away with nothing. They spend their entire time bleating that we haven't told them what the EU is going to agree to before the EU has agreed to it. Then do their damndest to bring down the negotiations so they can say the government hasn't delivered.

We have been told what leave means. It means that we are no longer in the single market, that the ECJ no longer has durisdiction over the UK and that immigration from the EU will be subject to immigration controls.

The fact that leavers and remainers alike have not been listening, or are waiting to hear what they thought they should hear, is not the fault of the government.

Those three principles of Leave have been repeated so long and so often that it should be burned into the entire race memory of the UK. The fact that it is not is more to do with the fact that people are trying to get a different result out of Leave.

What does leaving the single market mean? It means we are no longer in the single market and that we will have whatever the EU will agree to in a trade deal. But, essentially, we will be free to write trade deals with the other 80% of the world economy.
What does the ECJ no longer having durisdiction over the UK mean? It means our courts will be the final arbiter of law for the UK. Except where we agree a different solution with the EU for a trade deal. Even CETA has this.
What does immigration from the EU will be subject to immigration controls mean? It means that EU citizens won't just be able to show up with their EU passport and live and work as if they were in the EU. Equally that will mean the same for British citizens in the EU. This impacts me more than 99% of UK citizens.

Everything else is detail and negotiation.

Which part of the above is not 100% crystal clear?

The only real detail which is missing is when, exactly, those three principles will go into effect. THAT will be the result of a negotiation with the EU.

If people don't know what Brexit is going to be, they have not been listening and that is, most certainly, not the fault of the government....

[Workingman]

It is the remainers (MP's, press, think tanks, pressure goups), who absolutely refuse to walk away with nothing.

Ah, but do not forget the Rees-Mogg / Bojo types who want the hardest of hard Brexits.

They are the extremes from both sides.

The vast majority of remainers and leavers, those with calm heads, want some sort of deal, that is why the government is negotiating. Unfortunately nobody knows what deal to negotiate for because there never was a plan; that failure is down to government.

If May had sat down with leavers from all parties before she pulled the A50 trigger she could have had a consensus of what Leave meant. She could have then gone on to form a united cabinet containing only those who would sign up to that ideal and in the process got support from the opposition benches.That she didn't is down to Tory party politics, which has left the government in disarray. The government and May, therefore, deserve all the epithets they get.