Clear as day and totally missed

[Workingman]

It is a bit rich to be blaming all out woes on Remain and the EU when we learn that only 60% of Leavers favour Hard Brexit, WTO and renegotiation of treaties.

Had those things been debated in the run up to the referendum instead of slogans on the side of buses and cries of "Project Fear" we would not be in this mess. Up to 40% of Levers could have voted Remain or abstained. Even if only a few % had done so Leave would have lost. That would have been the very best outcome.

We would now have a strong and stable one party government able to work for change within the EU with the barely hidden fact that in another referendum we could leave at any time should there be no change. We could then sit down calmly an make a leave plan that would work whilst at the same time using existing EU rules on FoM and so on.

Ah 20:20 hindsight, ain't it wonderful?

[cromwell]

The EU doesn't change Frank. The answer to every question is always "more Europe". If I had thought that the EU could change I would have been much less likely to vote leave.

[medsec222]

I agree the EU will never change. We were told for years that it is far better to be inside the EU working for change and using our influence, than to be outside the EU without a voice. The Leavers have realised this was never to be, and that is why 'take back control' is so appealing. I really hope we can escape the clutches of the EU with a decent deal.

[Workingman]

I am not so sure about this EU myth.

We have had it rammed down our throats that the UK is the second largest economy in the EU and that it needs us more than we need it = leverage. And we have evidence from Maggie's time the when the UK stops sucking its thumb, stands up and acts, the EU does listen.

We never really tried to steer the EU because 1. We refused to take a full part, and 2. Since Maggie we have not had a politician with any backbone wrt the EU and 3. We were never serious about making allies against the Franco-German duopoly.

[Suff]

The 60% was a straw man WM. It's probably more like 2-3% in that category but your assertion stands that if 3% of Leave voters had voted the other way it would all be over bar the funeral now.

The reason that 2%-3% had enough backbone to vote for change was quite simple in the end. If Cameron had offered the Referendum at almost any other time he would have succeeded, but he didn't. He chose to call the referendum within a year of the Scottish Independence referendum. Now you could have been living under a rock for that one but nobody in the entire country missed Project Fear in that referendum.

So when Project Fear was rolled out in even larger style for Brexit, even the most timid Leaver had to ask "what do they have to hide? What do they have to fear?".

It was so far over the top that anyone who was not "Remain at any cost" had to take a step back and ask what the hell was going on.

So we voted to leave. More importantly if we don't leave every single one of those voters who voted to leave and more besides, will be asking. "Why the hell won't they do this?". Labour and the Tories are most at risk from this question. Lib Dem voters tend to fall into the "Remain at any cost" so they are fairly safe.

As for change from within the EU? Forget it. You actually need to understand the EU to realise why this is such a stupid idea. You actually have to read the EU news, read the articles with statements from the ministers from other governments and, generally, take a deep interest in the entire workings of the EU. Virtually nobody outside of Academia is even vaguely interested in that. The remainder who actually do take an interest are those who have lived and worked in multiple EU countries, worked with people from even more of those countries and actually taken the time to find out how they tick (no I'm not one of a kind, but there are not many of us).

If you take the time you will realise one thing clearly. The only thing the rEU 27 can agree on, every single time, without a thought, is to say NO to the UK for any single thing the UK wants. Change, concessions, working standards, policies. No, No, NO, Hell NO.

Should it be ANY other country at least some of them will stop and think about it. It must have been the greatest surprise to Cameron when he was turned on and savaged by members of the former Eastern Bloc, those countries we had given up part of our rebate to fund directly.

It was, however, no real surprise to me. It doesn't take a mind reader, or more than a few seconds in the EU, to realise that the UK stands out on a limb; ostracised, used, bled for money and influence and power. But otherwise ignored.

Brexit is the ultimate price of that attitude. The despondency you see around the EU, if you don't read the UK press or the EUphile press from other EU states, but read the less EU aligned press and the statements from Ministers of governments who benefitted greatly from the UK's membership of the EU. The Commission, the Council, the Parliament, they ALL, to a man, guaranteed that the UK would not leave. It was inconceivable, it was just never going to happen. So those who now go around with long faces said nothing but the puerile "we need you don't go".

Hell yes they need us but they should have been thinking that when they told Cameron to go sling his hook, in no uncertain terms, whilst counting the gain they would keep from the UK remaining in the EU.

For the UK there is no "change from within". There never was and there certainly will never be now. The dynamic of the EU is that the original 5 didn't want the UK and were eventually forced to accept the UK, but only under extremely punitive terms that it took Maggie to undo. With the extremely poor grace that is the trademark of the EU, they tried for more than 30 years to get rid of Maggie's changes. Well now they have, no issue, no rebate, just a €13bn A YEAR hole in their budget to cover.

Let us stop trying to imagine that staying in the EU, the single market or the customs union is a good thing for the UK. The only thing the UK is, in any of those three, is a good thing for is the rEU27. Let us face that and move on.