Sauce for the Goose

[AliasAggers]

We are leaving. All of this is noise. Once we have left, we are never coming back.

What Remain needs to do is GET OVER it and help the country to move on and adjust to the changes.

When history is written, 50 years from now, the Remainers will be documented as the most damaging movement the UK has ever seen. Bar none.

Perhaps they might want to think about that.

Well put, Suff.

[Kaz]

Nonsense, and not a little insulting to those of us who voted remain for sincere reasons.

[TheOstrich]

I respect those who voted for sincere reasons to stay in the EU like you, Kaz, as I hope you respect those of us who, also for sincere reasons, wanted out.

However, like last night's penalty shoot-out after 120 minutes play, the referendum result should be taken as effectively conclusive.

My view, in hindsight, following the referendum, is that it went wrong the following day when Cameron bottled it and fled, and May took over. What May should have done is to follow one of the great traditions of British democracy (if you have any time for that) and declare that "winner takes all". Every national and local election we have, the winning party of the first past the post system effectively then takes control and rules. What May should have done is not try to compromise, or find a consensus, but have packed her Cabinet (and civil service advisors) with Brexiteers and gone for it. No internal wrangling, one focused mind, concerted front against Brussels, no truck with blackmail or contempt from Barnier and Juncker, and by now we'd be well down the road towards out with no transitional period or any other such uncertainty.

You know, if the vote had been 52-48 in favour of Remain, we Brexiteers would have had no choice but to accept the status quo, knowing full well that any attempt to "pursue the dream" would have been met with derision by the Biased Broadcasting Corporation and the metropolitan elite, would we?

[Kaz]

It was Suff's comment about Remainers being the most damaging movement ever Ossie, and that we might want to think about that, that I take exception to. I know your reasons were sincere. I do now accept that Brexit is happening, personally I think it will take us a long time to recover from all this, and hope it will eventually be worth all of the division!

[AliasAggers]

I voted to leave the E.U. after weighing up all the pros and cons, which wasn't easy.

I think the main problem of EU membership is that it does appear, to me anyway, to be taking us away from
what are the basic advantages of a true democracy, and in some ways, seems to be very much like the start
of a new form of dictatorship by non-elected foreigners.

I, for one, do not feel any resentment against anyone who voted to stay in the EU. Deciding whether to vote
for IN or OUT was not an easy task.

[Workingman]

Ossie, I agree with the thrust of your main paragraph except for one tiny detail.

We Remainers knew what we were voting FOR. We had lived it for 44 years as it evolved from the EEC to the EU. That might not have been to everyone's liking, but we knew what we had, where we were going and how to get there. Sure, it is not perfect, but its imperfections were magnified by our own government when it did not apply EU rules (see FoM) in the same way as other EU members did, but it was a known known.

Leave, on the other hand, was nebulous. Nobody knew what it really meant. From well before the referendum Leave should have been legally defined. The various factions should have had to publish a consensus of what "Leave" would mean. Forex Leave means:

* No Customs Union
* No FoM
* No single market
* No ECJ, ever
* WTO rules
* No EFTA (Norway)
* No CETA (Canada)
* No transition period
* Leave means completely out

Had that been the case quite a few "Leavers" might have had second thoughts. Some would have said OK to all. Others might have baulked at some of the options. I am nor saying that they would have chosen to vote Remain, but it would not have taken many to abstain to make the result totally meaningless.

Had that been done the Leave position could have been challenged with facts, but it wasn't so we got the lies and myths.

I am with Kaz, but chose to bite my tongue.

[Kaz]

I know Aggers xxx

Thanks Frank, you put it better than I could have. The uncertainty is so damaging xxx

[Suff]

It was Suff's comment about Remainers being the most damaging movement ever Ossie, and that we might want to think about that, that I take exception to. I know your reasons were sincere. I do now accept that Brexit is happening, personally I think it will take us a long time to recover from all this, and hope it will eventually be worth all of the division!

Kaz,

I had hoped that it was obvious from my comments on other posts that I do not count those who voted to remain as an issue. They had their vote and they voted remain. There is no issue with this. If they had won, there would have been no issue with that either.

Those I count as Remainers with a capital R, today, are those who absolutely refuse to accept the will of the people, that will, by any means at their disposal, try to tie the UK to the EU in any way they possibly can; regardless of the damage that they will do to the UK in the process. A classic example of that, today, are the Lords, the Tories who are ripping their government apart and the Labour and Lib Dem MP's who voted to Remain.

I won't be here in 50 years but I have not doubt, whatsoever, that history will not deal with them kindly. They don't deserve it.

[Suff]

Ossie, I agree with the thrust of your main paragraph except for one tiny detail.

We Remainers knew what we were voting FOR.

WM, you are making me laugh and my back still hurts so it's not good for me.

Go back and read your own posts (and mine), during the referendum. Both of us bemoaned the fact that the Remain cause did Not One Single Thing to promote the UK cause in the EU. They were ALL about Project Fear.

There were benefits to being in the EU, I stressed that at the time. I, more than 95% of people in the UK, have lived those benefits and used them. However, my belief then, which remains true today, is that the benefits were drastically outweighed by the drawbacks.

The fact that the Remain campaign and the government tried to scare the people into remaining in the EU tells anyone, who really thinks about it, what the truth of the whole situation is.

Let me Explain to you what the Remainers were voting for that they Did Not understand at all.

- Schengen
- The Euro
- Frontex (The European Border and Coast Guard Agency)
- The EU as a country with the UK as a member state
- Common taxation at the EU level
- ID cards
- EU citizenship (as opposed to UK citizenship)
- The loss of the UK seat on the UN security council

Not today, not tomorrow, not in the next 1-2 decades. However, these things are coming for the EU as certainly as day follows night. The UK had a stark choice. Accept them or Leave.

Don't even try and tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about, the Commission and Council went crazy trying to push the benefit of "even more integration" (read most of the above), after 2019, because the UK was no longer blocking it.

These are the stated aims of the EU. Just read the Maastricht Treaty. Just read the, now discarded, constitution. Then go and read the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Operation of European Union.

Ah, yes, I forgot. People, remainers and leavers alike, don't want to read what the EU has actually said that they will/want/are going to do; they want someone else to tell them what it means.

The problem:

Everybody who "tells" you what it means has interpreted it based on their own bias. So, if you don't read it yourself and understand it yourself, then you are only going to get someone else's bias.

So, telling me that Remainers knew what they were voting for is never going to fly. The only thing they knew was that things would carry on, pretty much, the same as they had for the last 4 decades.

You know how you boil a live frog? If you put a frog into boiling water it will jump out. If you put a frog into a pot of cold water and slowly raise the heat to boiling, it will not jump out and will, eventually, boil.

It is about time the UK got out of the pot. No matter how many frogs want to remain and boil alive.

[Workingman]

More stuff and nonsense, more deflection, more lies, more refusal to take ownership of the disaster, more blame game.

I am not surprised in the slightest.