Where are all the supporters?

[TheOstrich]

Oh dear!

This really is project fear

It's actually getting quite laughable now. The only thing missing is the plague of locusts (but then we haven't had an updated climate change forecast in the last 48 hours to my knowledge).

[Workingman]

52:48 voted Leave, we got that, but today?

This has now gone beyond a joke. There is no majority, anywhere, not even in the Brexit camp for no deal.

There is no majority in the Galaxy for May's deal.

And no majority, atm, for Remain.

The sensible thing to do would be to pause proceedings, but the only way to do that is revocation of A50. A second ref, change of leader. people's vote or general election will not do it.

[cromwell]

The EU have got a good deal though - for them. Why would they want any change of plan now?

[Suff]

The EU have got a good deal though - for them. Why would they want any change of plan now?

They don't.

They have agreed almost everything they ever had from the UK except the money in their deal. For the money they get rid of a major thorn in the side in all their treaty updates. This is seen as a Win+ in the EU.

The only fly in the ointment is that if the UK decides to unilaterally secede from May's "deal", there is nothing they can do but apply sanctions and that will fall foul of WTO and even land them in trouble in the UN. Everyone has a right to withdraw from a treaty between nations, international relations could not continue without that as nobody would ever sign a treaty.

In many ways I'm glad the EU has done this because it just shows the relationship for what it always was and nobody can hide it with EU lies and EU shenanigans.

Of course they were going to go with Project Fear. It has only failed once and they think they have a handle on that now. Every other time they have pressed the bell we have salivated on queue.

[Suff]

The sensible thing to do would be to pause proceedings, but the only way to do that is revocation of A50. A second ref, change of leader. people's vote or general election will not do it.

I read that the CJEU has committed to a preliminary (non binding), opinion on Tuesday followed by a full ruling rapidly within the same month. This is so fast for that court that I could only see one possible opinion but I may be wrong.

[Workingman]

I read that the CJEU has committed to a preliminary (non binding), opinion on Tuesday followed by a full ruling rapidly within the same month. This is so fast for that court that I could only see one possible opinion but I may be wrong.

The fast-track request was made and accepted by the court in October with proceedings to begin at 9 am on the 27th of November (Tuesday gone). Tuesday the 4th of December doesn't seem too hasty for a preliminary decision. It will then go to the Advocates for a legal clean-up before the judges do a final deliberation and verdict.

The timing of all of this is delicious.

If the prelim verdict on the 4th Dec is that A50 can be unilaterally revoked that gives MPs a whole week to wrestle with their consciences before the parliamentary vote on May's deal on the 11th. Then there's the on/off off/on summit. Cat, the, among, pigeons: rearrange.

It is all edge of the seat stuff - or a cure for insomnia.

[medsec222]

I can't follow any of it now. I am totally lost. However, interestingly during the discussion on daily politics today, a view was expressed that we should have left with a no deal two years ago when we would have been in a better position today. I think we have talked about that on here previously.

[Workingman]

However, interestingly during the discussion on daily politics today, a view was expressed that we should have left with a no deal two years ago when we would have been in a better position today. I think we have talked about that on here previously.

It is all very well for commentators to spout their 20:20 hindsight views at this stage from the comfort of a TV studio - issue A50, declare no deal and walk away. All very macho, but not so simple. What these brave souls never do is tell us 'How'.

It could have been done had there been detailed assessments of possible pitfalls before invoking A50. We know that no such thing was done 1. because there was no time between the vote and A50, and 2. the government told us so.

[Suff]

It could have been done had their been detailed assessments of possible pitfalls before invoking A50. We know that no such thing was done 1. because there was no time between the vote and A50, and 2. the government told us so.

Yes but it is all a bit moot isn't it. This whole economic assessment is nothing more than opinion. Granted it is supposed to be an informed opinion but when there are two or even three "opinions" and they diverge by as much as 20%-40%, then the opinions are worthless.

There is a much simpler decision path.

Do we want to leave? Yes.
Will leaving without a deal and just walking away hurt? Yes.
Are we willing to take the short term pain of walking without a deal?

Yes == Walk and get on with it.
No == do the due diligence and try to get a deal

The consensus, when A50 was invoked, was that it was worth going for a deal anyway as the fall-back position of no deal was always there.

2 years on and the predicted economic collapse has not happened. Yes the BOE has managed to talk the £ into the floor and the whole world economy has been going through an adjustment period of growing and contracting. The UK? Has weathered it pretty well, worse than some but a Hell of a lot better than the vast majority of the EU member states.

Now that crunch time has arrived the whole "undermine Brexit" movement has moved into high gear. Get the courts to rule, tell any old story so long as you get the result you want, after all, if you get the result you want the alternative will never be tested.

The problem with that approach is that we have seen that before. We were told that the UK would collapse into disaster if we Dared to Even VOTE for Brexit; let alone actually leave. It was the ultimate scare tactic and it failed. What happened? Very little, apart from strong growth in the UK economy driven by the knee jerk reaction of the BOE in dropping rates.

Why, exactly, we should believe these same people, all over again, is something I can't understand.

My personal feeling is that the CJEU will do as it is tasked to do and determine in favour of EU stability. Judging that the UK can cause 2 years of havoc in the EU then just say "sorry I don't want to do that" and walk away, is most certainly NOT in favour of EU stability. Every time a member state is in conflict with the EU, they'd hold a referendum and trigger A50 then tell the EU to sort themselves out or they Will leave.

Italy coming to mind there.

Meanwhile, whilst the truly catastrophic possibility of the UK leaving the EU is taking everyone's focus, Russia is borderline annexing another chunk of Ukraine. Germany and France don't want to sanction because they need the trade and the new gas pipeline. Italy, Greece and Cyprus won't go for sanctions because they took huge loans or are politically aligned with Putin.

Yes we should have just walked away. But who could have predicted this? Well, for instance, me and a lot of others who see the EU for what it is and May for who she is.

[AliasAggers]

Yes we should have just walked away. But who could have predicted this?
Well, for instance, me and a lot of others who see the EU for what it is and May for who she is.

That sums it up nicely. there has been far too much talking and not enough action.
It only needed one meeting to tell the E.U. "We are leaving imediately, Goodbye".