Brexit Reality starts to bite for Ireland

[Workingman]

No matter how loud or how often you shout it there is no State of the EU. No United States of Europe (USE) no European Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (EUSSR) nor any other recognised 'State' formation. They are made up titles by the anti EU brigades, but they are not real, the places do not exist - except in their twisted minds.

Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to national citizenship and shall not replace it.

The key words "additional" and "national citizenship" kind of explain the principle. They are not difficult to understand. The words of the treaty really do spell out the utter ballcocks of the "State" claims of the antis.

Am I any less English because I am in the EU and also an EU citizen? No, absolutely not, and nor are the cultures of the French, Italians, Germans etc diminished by the same. They might all be citizens of the EU but they still remain fierce and proud French, Italians and Germans. This "we are losing our Britishness" is just another of those tiresome myths and legends spluttered out by rabid EUphobes without a neutrino of evidence to back them up.

[TheOstrich]

The Heads of State or Government of the Member States of the European Communities meeting within the European Council resolved to continue the work begun on the basis of the Treaties of Paris and Rome and to create a united Europe, which is more than ever necessary in order to meet the dangers of the world situation, capable of assuming the responsibilities incumbent on it by virtue of its political role, its economic potential and its manifold links with other peoples, ...
The Heads of State or Government, on the basis of an awareness of a common destiny and the wish to affirm the European identity, confirm their commitment to progress towards an ever closer union among the peoples and Member States of the European Community.

Where's the Backstop in "Ever Closer Union", then?

I have absolutely no desire to be a citizen of Europe, governed by the EU and its rules and laws, period. And I don't believe I'm alone in that view.

[Workingman]

Ossie, your quote is from the Solemn Declaration on European Union (Stuttgart, 19 June 1983).

The whole declaration sets out how the EU should function when it is created in 1993 with regards to all of the relevant the treaties and papers up to that time.

Unfortunately It is often interpreted by those who hate the European project as the 'blueprint' for the creation of some sort of State of Europe.

It is true that it makes much of closer union, cooperation, convergence, the approximation of laws and mutual relations. And it goes on to mention combined political, economic and security matters so that they are presented to those outside the bloc in a cohesive manner. It lays out how the EU parliament, commission council and court (ECJ) will operate and interact with each other. All of those things are sensible and desirable and they are nothing, IMHO, to be afraid of. It is actually pretty close to how the EU has worked since Maastricht.

What it does not do, and this is where some 'interpretations' come into play, is talk about the abolition of nation states or their governments and it certainly does not mention the creation of any EU government.

[victor]

Sorry WM it may not be their stated aim at the moment but it will come in time

[Workingman]

Very true, Vic, it might happen:

1. Some people fear it
2. Some simply do not like it
3. Some are not bothered by it
4. Some work towards it

I would put myself at position 3.

[Kaz]

[sarcasm] Personally I think it's well worth jumping off a cliff, into the abyss, risking so much of what we hold dear,just so people don't feel slightly less British [/sarcasm]

[Workingman]

[Suff]

The key words "additional" and "national citizenship" kind of explain the principle.

citizen
noun [ C ] uk ​ /ˈsɪt.ɪ.zən/ us ​ /ˈsɪt̬.ə.zən/ ​
B2 a person who is a member of a particular country and who has rights because of being born there or because of being given rights, or a person who lives in a particular town or city:

You cannot be a citizen of a trading bloc.

The #1 reason all the French around me voted down the EU Constitution was for that reason and that reason alone. "We are FRENCH citizens, not a citizen of the EU!". They cried.

And then their parliament locked them out, voted for the Lisbon treaty amendment to the Treaty on European Union and, hey presto, they were "citizens" of the EU.

Citizen is a right conferred on an individual by a state. Granted there are unrecognised states, where people would be stateless, but, the EU is not unrecognised. It even has a non voting chair on the UN.

It might be worth reading this article to clarify somewhat.

Or you could just keep shouting your belief at me instead of providing a fully accredited opinion that the EU is NOT a state in any way and that being a citizen of the EU has no rights, benefits or responsibilities attached.

There will come a time, in the next 100 years or so, when state citizenship of the EU is a "nice to have" and the EU citizenship is all that is important. That is not just my thinking, it is a fundamental and founding principle of "ever closer union".

[Suff]

[sarcasm] Personally I think it's well worth jumping off a cliff, into the abyss, risking so much of what we hold dear,just so people don't feel slightly less British [/sarcasm]

On the other hand we could hold fast to the sinking ship; whilst everything we hold dear is stripped away from us, one layer at a time.

Plus what abyss would we be jumping off into? We already export more to the rest of the world than we do to the EU. We only import so much from the EU because it would be prohibitively expensive to import from outside the EU because of EU tariffs.

We are a founding member of the UN, the IMF and just about every other international body on the planet. Never mind that we are the second most powerful country in NATO, which guarantees European security from the East.

We're also the fifth largest economy in the world.

But, NO, let's stay in the EU and be told what to do by, Poland, Denmark, Ireland....

Jumping off a cliff?

Walking off a step. But even a step can seem to be an abyss if you hype it enough and that is what is going on.

Not only is the EU NOT the largest trading area in the world (NAFTA is), it is not the richest in the world and it does not have the largest GDP. In fact the EU will rapidly become smaller than China in trade and GDP once the UK leaves.

However if you read the Remain press, the EU is the largest market in the world, massively more important than anyone else in the world and has more influence in the world than anyone else.

That, in case they missed it, is the US. Not the EU!

I'm so tired of the "jumping off a cliff" scare story. If people just want to have their lives run for them then great, repeal A50 and get on with doing as Brussels says.

[Kaz]

Sorry you're tired of the argument! Whoops, I forgot my sarcasm brackets