So, as predicted, Boris won.

[medsec222]

If anyone is to blame it is a Government who offers voters a referendum without thoroughly preparing for both options, either leave or remain. It was a dereliction of duty that it failed to do so. I did read a comment in one of the newspapers some time back, that Article 50 should not have been revoked until the Government had prepared for all outcomes and appropriate measures put in place. With hindsight it would have been the sensible thing to do.

[TheOstrich]

Well, there's little mileage in pointing the fingers and arguing the toss over it all now.

Either it will happen, or it won't.

Either it will be a disaster, or it won't.

The history books will tell us.

But at least it's coming to a conclusion now, and hopefully by Halloween we'll have ended the limbo our lives have been in for the last three years.

[miasmum]

Absolutely Ossie

[Suff]

Give you a break... to do what?
You have been politely asked time and again what sort of leave the majority of Leave voters, more than 48% of total votes, wanted.

And I have replied, time and time again, that the Brexit we could expect was defined by the government during the campaign. That definition was, absolutely, hard brexit.

Given that direction from their government of the time, that is what people voted for.

I'm not interested in the accusations of lies, the twisting of the truth or any other emotive rant about the whole situation. The people who ran the country defined voting for Brexit as Hard Brexit. The people voted. All of them. For that definition.

Now, the government of the day is, finally, delivering on that demand from the people.

Everything else is spin, emotive or a personal analysis. What I have written above is fact.

[Suff]

It is interesting that we are blaming the Government. If anyone is to blame it is the Parliament, all of them.

Our current government is a minority government with a confidence and supply deal with a small subset of MP's who are sufficient in number to provide a majority.

Then we have the situation with the EU. The EU has no interest in negotiating anything other than what they want. Not that I can blame them for that. However our Parlianment insist on demanding something the EU will never agree to.

Therefore our Parliament has taken a position to not facilitate leaving the EU. Because our Government does not have a majority in Parliament and because our Government is also fractured, it is unable to deliver on what the EU wants. The Government, under May, was also unwilling to override Parliament and force Brexit on their own terms.

That is how we got into this mess.

Now we have a Government which is determined to deliver an exit from the EU by the agreed exit date, despite the demands of the EU or the rabid rantings of Parliament. If the EU wants to be reasonable, then fine, they'll go with it. If not, stuff them and stuff parliament.

We shall see if, in the end, they can execute.

If they do execute, I can tell you this. The Brexit party will be muzzled, Boris will win a majority to deliver the rest of Brexit, if he goes to an election and Labour will be massacred.

If they don't? Chaos and Farage will be the one laughing all the way to Westminster.

[Workingman]

There are some hardline Brexiteers who live in a Brexitopian fact-free 'fiction zone' where everything else is spin, emotive or personal analysis and possibly even lies, project fear and propaganda brought to us Remidiots who believe them by the dictators of the undemocratic EU.

We should all thrash ourselves with birch rods till we fall into line, and if we do a damned good job on ourselves the Brexiteers might just let us into their land of sunlight uplands, Unicorns, Mermaids and rainbow dust: once they find it. And if they don't it will be everyone and his dog to blame - everyone else, forever and ever. Amen.

[Suff]

I note you didn't reply to my factual summation of what the Government said and what the people then voted for.

Such is the "debate" surrounding Brexit.

Fact. The Government of the day told the people that if they voted for Brexit:

The pound would collapse
Taxes would rise
Jobs would be lost
Our economy would suffer
We would be isolated in the world.

Ignore vote leave or the remain campaign, that was the official position of our government.

Today, we are told that Hard Brexit will cause:

The pound to collapse
Taxes to rise
Jobs will be lost
Our economy will suffer
We will be isolated in the world.

Oh and to add to that little lot, NI will fall into chaos.

So, tell me. What did people vote for? Don't tell me I'm wishing unicorns or living in a hard Brexit echo zone.

Confirm that the Government did not tell the voters that the impact of voting for Brexit is the same as what the Remain MP's and the press, are calling Hard Brexit!

Please, tell me the Government didn't say that. Show me how I'm wrong.

Don't keep repeating your position that I'm in some kind of hard right hard Brexit echo chamber and not aligned with reality.

[Workingman]

OK, I can confirm that both lists are the same, almost word-for-word.

I can also confirm that they are both predictive in that we have not left yet. They can only morph into 'fact' once we have left. Some of them are well on the way.

NI is in chaos and has been for two years and six months: see Johnson's statement today for details, though it is not because of Brexit. What is because of Brexit is Mary Lou McDonald's call for a border poll as per the GFA, and that is a fact.

So, I have done my bit, as requested.

Will you now do your bit, as per my repeated requests, and give us a list of five evidence based and costed benefits of Brexit?

[Suff]

No I wanted you to confirm that the first list was what the Cameron government said we were voting for and the second list is what is now defined as "Hard Brexit"

When confirmed, that means the people who voted, voted for Hard Brexit.

Which means that is what people voted for and any statements that there is no majority for Hard Brexit are totally and completely wrong.

I don't care if NI is in chaos or the Scots are up in arms.

THIS, exactly THIS, is both the price of direct democracy and the price of a Union of unequal states.

I note that those who stand strongest for democracy and the Union tend to be totally against the democratic result of the referendum and totally against the fact that said democratic result may cause significant issues for the less than equal members of the Union.

Be careful what you wish for. You may get it..... Direct democracy doesn't always produce what the proponents want. Neither does a union of unequal states magically give the minor states a larger voice in the affairs of the whole

Meanwhile.... I'm waiting to see the results of the Brecon by-election. Should be interesting. Normally I'd have to wait till the morning but I have to be on a train at around 2am to get my 06:05 flight tomorrow....

[Workingman]

When confirmed, that means the people who voted, voted for Hard Brexit.

Total bollocks! All it confirms is that the lists are similar.

It is interesting to note that the new foreign secretary, Dumbo Raab, has made similar claims and has been officially asked to withdraw them. He will come under scrutiny at the next Commons' foreign affairs committee where he is accused of "flatly misleading the public when he claims no-deal was discussed as a realistic outcome by Leave campaigners".

So, the answer to my request is that there is nothing on offer other than factless hopes and predictions based on lies, biases, emotions and personal analyses.

Oh, and I found this. Thanks Sky:



It's a slide from a government presentation to cabinet before May "retired".

It's good to live in the real world.