So, as predicted, Boris won.

[Suff]

To recap:
So did others... Thank you, thank you so much. You have confirmed that you were wrong to claim that Cameron came back with nothing when I said that he did. It's not the first time you've been proved wrong..

Well done. Take a bow.

Why would I take a bow. If you hold a can of fresh air it is a can of fresh air. If you are standing on fresh air, then it is a can of nothing.

Cameron came back with a bunch of words which represented a can of fresh air whilst standing in the middle of the country.

Hence, he came back with nothing.

[Workingman]

Dodgy analogy, but nice try....

However, your link tells us the truth and the truth is that the analogy is a load of bollocks.

You, personally, do not like what Cameron came back with, but that's because anything less than ripping up all the treaties would not have met with your idea of success.

But don't be too hard on Cameron. He was so weak and feeble that he ran away from the perpetual beer swilling, fag puffing, wealthy racist, Fartrage, and gave you your referendum. He should be your hero.

[Suff]

Dodgy analogy, but nice try....

However, your link tells us the truth and the truth is that the analogy is a load of bollocks.

You, personally, do not like what Cameron came back with, but that's because anything less than ripping up all the treaties would not have met with your idea of success.

But don't be too hard on Cameron. He was so weak and feeble that he ran away from the perpetual beer swilling, fag puffing, wealthy racist, Fartrage, and gave you your referendum. He should be your hero.

Kaz, I don't disagree that he is a good constituent MP. However this situation is about the survival of the Conservative party in its current form and he can talk about his conscience all he likes; however most Conservatives believe that Corbyn is a far greater risk to this country and Brexit.

My son was being rather blunt about this on Saturday. He was totally disgusted with MP's "voting their conscience". His very words were. "MP's are not there to have a conscience, they are there to represent the wishes of the voters. Guide by all means, explain your position by all means, but they vote, they REPRESENT the will of the people. Their conscience has nothing to do with it"

When you choose to be an MP for a party you agree to abide by the manifesto of that party and to support the party leadership. If you chose to undermine that manifesto and the party leadership, then you are fair game to be removed as an MP.

I'm not saying that he doesn't believe in what he is doing, or that he may not have very good reasons for doing what he is doing. What I am saying, as are many others, is that he is betraying the voters of the country and the party he chose to be a part of.

That, of itself, warrants, at the very least, investigation into his actions on behalf of his voters and his party.

Anything else would be a betrayal of both.

[Suff]

Dodgy analogy, but nice try....

However, your link tells us the truth and the truth is that the analogy is a load of bollocks.

You, personally, do not like what Cameron came back with, but that's because anything less than ripping up all the treaties would not have met with your idea of success.

But don't be too hard on Cameron. He was so weak and feeble that he ran away from the perpetual beer swilling, fag puffing, wealthy racist, Fartrage, and gave you your referendum. He should be your hero.

WM, as you might recall (or not), I was one of those who said that the EU had some good in it. That if the EU could be reformed, it would provide a place for the UK to grow and prosper. I said that it was vital that the EU understood the UK and not that it was all a one way street.

I also have a LOT of time for Cameron. The fact that he was forced into a referendum by the voters themselves, that the EU hung him out to try, that he had to walk away after trying his damndest to resolve the situation, does not change any of my opinions.

You know, as well as I do, that nothing the EU agreed to with Cameron would have changed the relationship of the UK with the EU. All the things that people were frustrated about would remain, all that would have happened is that the EU would have offered up a few changes which mainly impacted the Eastern European states, whilst protecting the Westers EU trade to the UK.

Anyway, you think I'm wrong and the fact is that nobody actually believed that Cameron came back with anything substantive from his negotiations. In fact the EU member state leaders who have the largest numbers of people at risk, of a Brexit, were the most unwilling to even talk about "reform".

You wilfully ignore all the statements of the EU institutions, when we decided to leave, that the EU could, now, move forward faster because those awkward Brits would be gone. There was never any intention to reform. In fact the opposite. Which is why the "concessions" offered to Cameron were nothing more than hot air. Useless and of no worth. Because, at the next round of treaty negotiations they would have been removed again.

You were never willing to accept that the real risk with the EU has never been with the EU being willing to change. That is a given, the EU is a country and they are totally focused on completing the mechanisms which make it one. The real risk is that we vote in some other unprincipled scumbag like Blair and they sell us down the river into the Euro, Schengen and all the other rules which our Opt Out's give us a by from.

There are only two possible paths to mitigate this.

1. the EU stops trying to be a country
2. the UK leaves the EU

Cameron went to the EU and tried the first. With predictable results.

So the people took the second route.

This is not difficult. You just need an open mind.

[AliasAggers]

Well put, Suff.

I agree with everything you have said on this subject.

[Suff]

Well Aggers, thanks for the support. I'm not always right and I find it hard, sometimes, to anticipate what our elected reprobates are going to do.

However the rhetoric is changing from a Hotel California acceptance to an Exit No Matter What stance.

Whilst many are dismissing the change of UK Diplomats from engaging with the EU meetings, to devolving our votes to the rotating chair of the European Council, as a stunt; it will rapidly become apparent that it is nothing of the sort. Eventually it will occur to even the most introspective and navel gazing EU plutocrats that the UK is disengaging with the EU. We gave them 3 years to come to the table and talk terms, they chose to bluster, demand and block. Now the UK is looking to the time beyond the EU. Deals with the EU? The EU can sort that out when we're gone and it starts to hurt. A LOT!

The EU already has issues with the cars they sell. They can't even call them EU vehicles when we leave because the sheer volume of UK manufactured parts made in the UK will tip the balance where the vehicles will be less than 50% manufactured in the EU. I've said this before but it bears saying again. The EU does _NOT_ buy UK goods unless one of two conditions are met. 1. they can't even get them anywhere else. 2. They are significantly cheaper from the UK than anywhere else. No EU manufacturer pays a premium for UK parts if they can get them anywhere else in the EU. They only premium they pay for is design engineering.

All of this has been lost in the noise and the screaming about how the UK is going to be hurt. Yes it is. But the EU is going to be really hurt too. Germany went from manufacturing recession to the first overall shrinkage of total GDP in the last quarter. A bad Brexit will drive them into a full blown recession, without a doubt.

Never mind the 1.6tn euro the EU states fund in London every year... Something Carney has mentioned on several occasions. Something which gets lost almost immediately after he says it.

Now let's think forward a bit. If the government does not fall in September, things are going to change. Horror stories about not being able to get drugs?? So we're saying that Nobody, anywhere else in the world, manufactures these drugs?? I'm pretty certain the US manufactures ALL of the required drugs. If we're going to have shortages it will be because we simply didn't bother to source them from somewhere else. The same for fruit, veg, meat and a whole host of other products we currently get from the EU.

The difference today is that our government is already planning to source all these things from outside the EU on Nov 1st. Leaving the traffic through the EU ports, to the UK, dramatically reduced because we simply won't be ordering the goods from them.

That report about how Hard Brexit would cause all these shortages? That was written for a government with Hammond in charge of the money. Refusing to fund a no deal bexit and leaving the UK in chaos if it happened by accident. No Deal by design is a totally different ball game and it's time the analysts got on board with it. Instead of trotting out the old tired re-treads of project fear dredged up to force people to vote the way they wanted.

Granted I have no idea just how I'll get home after Nov 1st but you can guarantee one thing. The hundreds of billions spent on flights is not going to suddenly stop because the UK leaves the EU. Not unless they want al their airlines to go under. We've been seeing enough of that as it is.

To be honest it is not really worth re-hashing this over and over at the moment. Boris is off to Germany and France, they are going to tell him to take a hike. He's going to the G7 where Trump will treat him as a friend and the EU will treat him as a pain in their backside. All whilst the MP's plot to get rid of him and create their own little Utopia. Well for a while anyway. Until the voters get involved and visit their ire on them all.

So it is back to wait and see, take the news with a bucketful of salt and read between the lines. At least till something concrete happens.

[medsec222]

We all have our positions and quite rightly so. However, I do agree with Suff when he says the genie is out of the bottle. The public have grasped their chance and voted to leave the EU. Whatever happens things will never be the same again, and if we do remain despite the referendum, the genie will always be there in the background.

It has got to the point now where I do not understand our Parliament at all. Most were elected on a manifesto to leave the EU. Parliament as a whole voted to evoke Article 50. Were they forced to do this? Was it against their will? Or were they thinking of their own careers at the time?

One Prime Minister has already been ousted and plans are afoot to try and oust another, despite the fact that he is in the midst of fragile negotiations to get us out of the EU with the best possible deal for our country. You would think MPs would get behind him and to ensure that he does deliver a deal which ensures the future prosperity of the country they profess to serve. So why all the backstabbing, undermining, threatening to bring down the Government, disloyalty, and weakening of the negotiation process - not to mention Jeremy Corbyn jumping a taxi to Buckingham Palace to waylay the Queen - and the unelected Gina Miller who is determined to thwart Brexit despite a public vote, no doubt relying on supporters with deep pockets to help her along.

By all accounts we are facing the final hurdle and our country depends on the best possible outcome, so why don't those MPs fortunate enough to have been elected to serve the country get a grip and ensure that Brexit is delivered with the best possible outcome and the least disruption to their constituents. Those who pay the price of all this dithering will be all those at the lower end of the income scale, that you can be sure of.

[TheOstrich]

If Boris has got any sense, he'll give Parliament a straight vote between No Deal Brexit and Theresa May's Negotiated Brexit. None of your "indicative votes" - a straight choice. That should concentrate a few minds on the Benches. Then once we've achieved Brexit, by whichever method, call a General Election and trounce Corbyn et al.

[Workingman]

If Boris has got any sense...

Oh stoppt, I can't eat my tea and laugh at the same time.

I also think that Boreice can only offer the choice of no-deal and May's deal by an 'indicative' vote and Bercow might have something (a lot) to say about that.

He might get away with it if he offers a 3rd ref or revoking A50, but that will never happen.

So, it looks like we will crash out, tank the economy, destroy an unknown number of jobs and ruin the futures for a couple of generations, but we get blue passports made in France. Ain't we the clever ones?

[medsec222]

Oh stoppt, I can't eat my tea and laugh at the same time. [/quote]


Try and eat your tea Frank. With all this scaremongering about food shortages it might be the last decent tea you get for some time