The EV truths slowly leak out.

[Workingman]

And more and more people are waking up to them.

Charging an electric car at home is much cheaper than using public charge points.

That's going to change, gone will be "cheap" electricity to fund road miles. The lost revenue from FF will see to that.

at present there is a disparity between how much it costs to charge a car at home compared to public charging, which is more expensive.

Consumers need to be protected from excessive charges.

I notice that with beer. It costs me more to "charge" my glass in a pub than it does at home, but at least I can drink at home, not everyone can charge a car at home.

Property developers should also be required to provide public charging points, and councils should make sure charging infrastructure is built.

What? The infrastructure is not there, yet we are about to make EVs mandatory! And guess who will pay - all of us, not just EV users. And what about existing housing stock? Who is going to install and pay for that infrastructure - EV users?

Charging electric vehicles should be convenient, straightforward and inexpensive and drivers must not be disadvantaged by where they live or how they charge their vehicles,"

In addition, drivers who live in rural or remote areas or who do not have off-street parking "risk being left behind.

So that's tens of millions of us who live in terraced housing, maisonettes, older strip developments in towns and villages, and high-rise flats. I would dearly love to see the plans to make it "convenient, straightforward and inexpensive" for them.

National Grid, said that the energy network operator was "working with government to map out where critical grid capacity is needed to enable the faster roll out of charging points".

"There will be an uptick in demand for energy so we need to ensure that we are future proofing, putting the right wires in the right place for future demand."

"Map out where critical grid capacity is needed" So, that's everywhere, err, more digging up and environmental damage. And what the hell is an "uptick" when it's about?

... when millions of electric cars make demands on the electricity grid.

Demand for power will rise, and MPs have voiced concerns that this could lead to blackouts in parts of the country.

Blackout! That is so un PC of our woke MPs! But not to worry. Government scientists are currently working on a "Magic Button / Switch" to solve all the problems.

In the meantime the good news is that I have designed a car charge "power bank" like we have for phones. It can charge a car from flat to full in about ten minutes using free electricity from windmills. The bad news is that it is the size of a double decker bus, but I am working on it. A problem solved - another created, just like EVs. Then there are the wind generators - big fans to make the wind blow continuously, unlike today. They will be powered by the currently installed windmills so that we get 24/7 wind and power. When the wind doesn't blow we fire up the fans and..... hmm, I might need to work on that one.

We are heading back to the future where only the rich can own and drive a car. The rest of us will be on push bikes, public transport or taxis. We are already heading there in some cities with their ever expanding Clean Air Zones (CAZ) and road pricing. At present a lot of them are for vehicles over a certain age, but the day will come when they are for all vehicles, inc EVs.

[TheOstrich]

How much does it cost to install a home charging point? The infrastructure costings do need to be taken into account.

For example, a solar thermal system is designed to provide free hot water. Applause. But when you stand back from it, the basic installation cost is £5k for a potential gas saving of £100 pa (if you're lucky), so you won't break even for 50+ years, and that's before regular maintenance / servicing / fluid change. Nobody in their right mind would install one.

I know we have to be concerned about climate change and eco-credentials, but we are currently being drowned by hype.

[Workingman]

How much does it cost to install a home charging point?

Who cares? I cannot have one in my upstairs flat, and I cannot safely have a lead from a window to the car, which could be parked doors away as I do not have a dedicated parking slot, without causing a trip hazard. There are tens of millions of us in the same situation.

I know we have to be concerned about climate change and eco-credentials, but we are currently being drowned by hype.

Correct! People have got "bees in bonnets" over certain 'solutions' and cannot, will not, even consider alternatives. Yet those of us who look beyond the hype are drowned out as naysayers, Luddites and Neanderthals.

Deflection incoming!

[Suff]

Ah such scepticism.

Have a look at Zap Maps to see just how much roll out there is today for charging infra. No it is not perfect but it is FAR from invisible.

In fact my daughters home/work journey had Zero charging capability for the journey just 18 months ago. Today there is sufficient for the number of vehicles on the road today and it is growing faster than the vehicles.

Yes, there will be an "uptick" in demand for power. About 20% for full residential EV usage. But, as I posted before, the Grid expects to increase grid power by at least 200% by 2050 and the biggest issue there is heating, not EV's. In fact the grid expects to become a net energy exporter to the tune of 100TW/h per year because the overbuild of renewables will be required to keep the ff net zero.

I reiterated, elsewhere, a nightmare journey I had on my bike (I also had the same in the car so it just tells you that I don't learn), when I decided not to refill at Aviemore on a Sunday night, on the way back down to Dunfermline. Both times I hit my fuel light within about 15 miles of leaving Aviemore. Both times I decided not to head back and try to get fuel on the way down the road. Both times it was a mistake. Because the only visible and available fuel, without a real hunt, on that road on a Sunday night, is in Perth. 85 miles south of Aviemore.

Now my reserve on my Galaxy was 2 gallons. But unless you go at 20mph, the best consumption on the 2.3 twin cam petrol Galaxy is 30mpg. Somewhat short of the 70 miles I needed. On the bike it is similar. The reserve is one gallon, the MPG on the bike, on average, is 45mpg. I made it both times, after a 3.5 hour journey from hell down the A9 which is not for the faint hearted when the trucks are barrelling past you at 50mph. Fortunately the bike is so powerful it can idle in 5th gear at 20mph and gets around 100mpg.

Now go back and look at Zap Map. The fuel situation hasn't changed, no new stations, in fact pretty much the opposite, they are closing. However, was I doing that run again now with an EV, I could charge in several points along the route.

This is reality. This is the change that is happening in our country right now. It is a change which is invisible to you because you want to ridicule it and won't look. Even I, who look a lot, was surprised at just how much progress we have made.

[Workingman]

Deflection incoming!

And so it came - in spades!

Most of the issues raised are ignored - as expected. And with the one issue mentioned there is lots of irrelevant filler but little detail about the practicalities.

Then there is this:

the Grid expects to increase grid power by at least 200% by 2050

Any link to the claim? Maybe it's in the National Grid's FES 2020 fairy story?. But no.

What was said by the man from the Grid and the committee of MPs, and these are real world quotes, are here:

National Grid, said that the energy network operator was "working with government to map out where critical grid capacity is needed to enable the faster roll out of charging points".

"There will be an uptick [increase, if working in plain English] in demand for energy so we need to ensure that we are future proofing, putting the right wires in the right place for future demand."

and...

... when millions of electric cars make demands on the electricity grid.

Demand for power will rise, and MPs have voiced concerns that this could lead to blackouts in parts of the country.

You and they cannot all be right.

Change is a coming and it is visible to me because I go and look, but rather than just soaking up what the glossy brochures sell me I also question. Come the day and you battery boys and girls are in for a big shock (pun intended) when you have to pay the full price to own, run and recycle your toys.

It is not that I do not like EVs, but I am mightily irked by all the positive hype in their favour, and the deflection from their negatives - and there are many negatives. I am also dismayed that we (well, politicians) have thrown all our eggs into the one basket to the exclusion of any other potential solutions.

But sticking to the only issue you are prepared to mention: ZapMap. My area, Leeds LS16: 36,388 population in 15.526 households. 1.7km away I have 2 x 22kW chargers at 30p/kWh + parking charges as they are on the partly private cricket ground. Nearest public are 5km away at Morrisons (LS18) 2 x 50kw + 2 x 43kw chargers at 35-39p/kWh. A daily round trip commute into Leeds from those areas is between 19 to 28km (12-18 miles). A weekly commute only charge would take ~35 mins (rapid) to nearly three hours (fast! ) + queuing time, and none are available 24/7. And as they use three phase electricity they will not be installed in many homes any time soon.

The same area has five petrol stations each with a minimum of eight pumps and all are open 24hrs. Empty to full, a month's commute "charge", in about five minutes. If you can get your vehicle on the forecourt you are sorted, no worries about nozzle adapters, everything is universal, just don't put diesel in petrol or vice versa.

[Suff]

Most of the issues raised are ignored - as expected. And with the one issue mentioned there is lots of irrelevant filler but little detail about the practicalities.

Because they are not issues. Do you fill your car up at your apartment? Of course you don't, you go to a petrol station and then drive it for: 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, depending on your usage. Your arguments are in the stone age, no serious EV producer is producing a vehicle that travels less than 250 miles on a full charge. So, NO, JLR, Mercedes, BMW, plus a swathe of others are NOT serious EV producers. Don't bring their products up and try to make your case because it won't wash. Even Nissan and Renault had to massively up their batteries on their vehicles and they still lag behind "serious".

Costs of "fuel"? Right now it has 5% VAT on it. MPGe of miles driven to cost is 120mpg. Or, put another way, less than half the cost of the average fossil burner on the roads.

Again and again, ignored. THERE WILL NOT BE 32 MILLION ELECTRIC VEHICLES ON THE ROAD IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS.

Was that loud enough. So stop shouting about how there won't be power, charging infra and "availability" for 32 million vehicles in the next 5-10 years. There simply does not need to be.

I'm not going to keep whacking that mole so it can be ignored and dragged up every time you want to shoot at Electric vehicles.

That's not deflection, that's utter boredom at saying the same thing over and over again to hear the same complaint. Keep that up and I'll start calling you Donald...

[Suff]

How much does it cost to install a home charging point? The infrastructure costings do need to be taken into account.

For example, a solar thermal system is designed to provide free hot water. Applause. But when you stand back from it, the basic installation cost is £5k for a potential gas saving of £100 pa (if you're lucky), so you won't break even for 50+ years, and that's before regular maintenance / servicing / fluid change. Nobody in their right mind would install one.

I know we have to be concerned about climate change and eco-credentials, but we are currently being drowned by hype.

Ossie, anyone who was not getting a 75% grant for putting in solar hot water knew that it was an utter waste of time. Solar power? Yes. Get a company that takes the lions share of the electricity refunds from the government and gives you £99 a year and a headache about selling the house with an uncertified modification to the roof? Erm, NO.

How much does it cost for a home charging point?

Get a fast and reliable 7kW EV smart home charger fully installed from £549(1) by Pod Point, a new member of the EDF family.

Why 7kw? Because to get 50kw requires that you get your wiring upgraded to 3 phase and a whole new plan. It costs over £1,000. Even a 22kw charger requires upgrades in most cases because full house supply used to be 24kw when we had 240v and 100amp fuses. 7kw is OK for home charging. 22kw to 50kw is for faster short charging. 150kw and above are for service station short top up, 40 minutes from half full.

Consider that your standard EV with a 250 mile range tends to have around 57kw/h of battery. A 7kw charger, at home, will charge that from dead in 8 hours. But most people will simply come home, plug it in and leave it till they need it again, every day. Average mileage is 19 miles. 3.5 miles per kw/h on average. That 5.4 kw/h will take 46 minutes to top up. It can take that charge at any time of the evening or night and can be scheduled for Economy 7 levels of tariff if required.

Now comes the calculation. Tesla charges 26p per kw/h on a supercharger. Normal grid cheapest is around 11p per kw/h. Economy 7 power can be as low as 8p per kw/h.

Now let's work out the costs.

19 miles per day average, 365 days, 6,935 miles per year.

Supercharger = £515 for your annual power
Normal lowest tariff = £217
Economy 7 cheapest = £158

To recover the cost of your 7kw charging point, compared to Tesla supercharging prices, is 1.84 years to recover your money on normal tariff and 1.53 years to recover your money on Economy 7 with scheduled charging. Then, your charging point stays with you until you either move home or stop running vehicles.

This is assuming just under 7,000 miles per year. Now let's take a Mrs S' case from about 5 years ago. She was racking up 32,000 miles a year. She would have saved the cost of the installation in 5 months on normal tariff and 4 months on Economy 7.

But that's not the really big thing here. Even at Tesla supercharger prices she would have saved £2,100 per year on the cost of fuel. £3,400 per year at normal electricity tariffs and £3,700 per year on economy 7, based on around 37mpg and the current cost of diesel.

But we all have to understand that an electric vehicle is useless, will take all the power from the grid, you won't be able to get 46 minutes of charging anywhere because there won't be any charging points and if you don't have your own home with a charging point you won't be able to charge it. Even if you do have your own charging point it will cost you a fortune and you'll never get your money back.

Right?

That's the story. It is called the Delay story. The longer you buy it the longer the incumbent vehicle manufacturers can keep flogging you vehicles that burn twice as much of your money to run and keep on burning fossil fuels to keep the fuel companies in business. I mean, it doesn't have to make sense, does it? It just has to sound good. Right?

[Workingman]

Now let's see..... hmmm, it was the government's appointed Transport Select Committee of MPs and the industries who brought the issues up in a report to be published later, not me.

You never address them as issues, not because you are bored but because they are a tad difficult, so it is much easier to lift the carpet or body swerve....

Nobody mentioned 32 million EVs on the roads, well you did, but it is a fact that the government has banned the sale of FF burners in about eight year from now. From that day forth all new cars will be EV and the old gas guzzlers will not last forever. EV numbers will eventually reach the millions not the hundreds of thousands of today.

Do I fill my car up at my apartment? Erm, 'No' and I won't be able to fill an EV up either as I am upstairs with no off road parking, but I can get 420 miles from a five minute "charge" at the local petrol station. The equivalent would take 14 hours on a 7kW home kit, and with three phase chargers it's 4 hours 40 minutes at a 22kW job, 2 hours 30 mins at a 43-50kW rapid charger and over one hour at an ultra rapid 150kW if I could find one that is - 3008 locations according to Zap-MAP.

Fuel eh? Currently the total tax on my fuel is 59.84% and is variable. Today's tax is about 344.8 p/gal, the actual fuel is 231.3 p/gal. So, if you add 5% to the fuel cost it comes to 242.9 p/gal My car does 42MPG on average so if my fuel was taxed at the same rate as yours it would cost about 5.7 p/mile. Still about a third more per mile than an EV, until things change that is.

Fuel duty and VED brings in about £40 billion to the treasury and no chancellor is going to let that amount slip through their sticky little fingers. Go on, hazard a guess at where s/he is going to get the shortfall from........ because you can bet your mortgage that it will be got back.

If my take is from the stone age then yours is from the glossy brochures.

[Workingman]

Ossie, worry ye not about the cost of your home charging point. We taxpayers, car owners or not, will subsidise its purchase and installation with £350 of free money to go with the £2,500 free money we give you to buy your £35,000 new battery car.

And here's another gem. "Forecasts cited by the CMA suggest the public charger network needs to expand by at least 10 times by 2030, from the current 25,000 to between 280,000 and 480,000 public charge points. A quarter of UK households – 8m – will be unable to install chargers at home.

However, a study by the regulator published on Friday suggested Britons faced a “postcode lottery” for access to public chargers. Outside London there are only 1,000 on-street chargers across the whole of the UK, while within the capital there are 4,700."

We are talking tens of thousands of chargers to be installed every year just to cope with the EVs on the roads up to 2030. That's between 540 and 920 each week, every week for eight or nine years, after that it goes up substantially. We currently install about 140 per week so we need to pull our socks up. The glossy fanboy (and girl) mags somehow forget to mention these things.

BTW: The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) is an independent government department, not an industry body or a lobby group - it has no axe to grind. It does not do glossy brochures and it's PDFs are a bit dry so probably not of interest to the battery 'fans'.

How many battery cars would be on the roads today without the free money bribes - asking for a friend?

[Workingman]

Suff, why don't you address the points raised (can't call them issues) are you blind to them?

They do exist and are real world problems for many of us. They will not disappear no matter how many glossy mags are produced.

Here you go:



A very small section of Leeds, street after street of back-to-backs, no gardens or off-road parking. No heat pumps or ultra rapid on-street chargers for these poor sods. This is the real world. I could also do Armley, Bramley, Chapeltown, Harehills and other districts as well, but the point is made

Similar places exist in towns and cities up and down the country, try selling your dreamscape to all of them.