Vaccines to be compulsory for frontline NHS staff.

[Workingman]

I agree that all frontline staff, not everybody, but definiterly those on the front line, should be vaccinated. But I see a lot of pragmatism here from Javid.

If 'no jab, no job' is retrospectively imposed by, say, Dec 1st then tens of thousands of unvaccinated staff could walk away. That would be a disaster for the NHS, care, and us patients over the coming winter. However, with the Sword of Damacles hanging over them and their jobs for the future it might, just might, persuade some 'doubters' to take up the offer.

[TheOstrich]

It just puzzles me why this is so.

It puzzles me too, to be honest. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who has refused to take up vaccination, so I can't ask, and the BBC News did not put that specific question to the now out-of-work care worker they interviewed tonight on the News. I would have like to asked what their objection to vaccination actually was.

I understand your freedom concerns, Crommers, and you are quite right, if we think it's bad now, just wait until the climate change directives are fully launched. Perhaps we're all being conditioned to be nothing other than sheeple these days.

[Suff]

France simply said you can live, shop and work without the vaccine. But if you want to socialise and enjoy yourself, then you have to have the vaccine, both of them.

It worked, refuseniks faded away. The choice was simple, don't want the vaccine, live a restricted life. That becomes your choice. Nobody is taking anything from you, if you won't take a simple precaution to protect those around you, then you don't get to socialise, you are taking it from yourself.

Our events, here, are pretty much mask free. Because you don't get to come in unless you are double vaccinated.

Of course everywhere else you can go unvaccinated, masks are mandatory.

[cromwell]

Soon to be three jabs in France Suff, and then how many more after that?

[Suff]

Unsure. You are not eligible for your 3rd jab until 6 months after your second. We got our jabs in the first third of inoculations and are not eligible for a booster until next year. If they require the booster, they won't do it until at least the middle of next year as they won't have enough people triple jabbed. Equally if they require an annual booster it will be somewhere around the middle of the following year before any boosted restrictions come in. By which time numbers of new cases should be extremely low.

France is running around 12k new cases per day and around 50 deaths. At the same time France has more serious/critical cases than the UK and has done1/4 the tests, per head of population, that the UK has done.

So France is muddling along. If you think about the whole situation, the lockdowns were there to stop the virus spreading by stopping people interacting. In France they stop the unvaccinated interacting with the vaccinated. Which has a similar (if less marked), effect to the general lockdowns.

Germany, who had not followed the same regimen, has seen cases go through the roof. 48k cases yesterday and they have more than twice the serious and critical cases that the UK does plus they had 244 deaths. High death rates are something Germany has largely avoided so far, having numbers far lower than the rest of the world for the same number of cases. Also their testing is 18% of the UK per head.

Monday Berlin and Brandenburg local government implemented the same restrictions France has.

In the UK the numbers refuse to grow to the rates "predicted". Just as they have never grown to the alarmist theoretical rates that have been thrown about since the beginning. I don't see these same curbs coming in for the UK (even though they would help a lot), because we simply don't like our government interfering in that way and we can't see enough people suffering (locally to us), to be worried enough to allow them to do this when the NHS is clearly not threatened.

Although Javid is clearly trying to stoke up fear with "save Christmas". If I recall, last time, the government "saved Christmas" themselves by relaxing the restrictions even though they knew everything was going downhill at that time.

Heading on for 2 years and Covid has become a political tool!

[Workingman]

As from today tens of thousands of care workers will lose their jobs or be working illegally because they re not double jabbed. That is the reality.

In an ideal world they would all be double jabbed. It would be in the Ts & Cs for their initial employment, and we would all be happy. Unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world.

If the numbers are correct, and tens of thousands have to leave, what will the overall affect on care be? Fewer staff means poorer care means more risk for those being looked after. Will it be worse than if some of them who are not fully jabbed are working? It is a fine balancing act and not an either / or.

At least with care the starting qualifications and training are relatively low and easy to learn. With wages going up at least some of the gap can be filled in fairly short order, that is not the case for Drs, nurses, HCAs, anaesthetists, dentists, ICU staff.....

Today is a clear indication as to why the same threat for frontline NHS staff is not till April. Up to 78,000 of them clearing off would cripple hospitals this wnter and their replacements will need high level quals and lengthy training and study - there is no quick fix for that.

I would like all frontline staff to be double jabbed, of course I would, but if it is not possible, and it isn't in this timeframe, then I will go along with "as many as possible" for now, so long as there is radical change for the future.

Given the choice of no staff to treat me or treatment by someone not double jabbed I know which choice I will make.

[miasmum]

I hadn't actually thought about it in comparison with travel vaccinations. I suppose people would say they have been tried and proven for many years whereas the covid vaccination is still pretty much untried and people have had a reaction to it. I dont know, I'm only playing devils advocate after all I'm triple vaccinated. We have a GP who has refused to have it as she has Crohnes and says she wont have it for that reason, not sure where that leaves her, anyone know?

[Workingman]

Sounds like your Dr is playing the game for her own ends.

She is not alone. Put her on the desk and let the recptionist do the consultations. In many surgeries that's what they do anyway.

"I have an ingrowing toenail so it's not for me."

These people are out there.

[Kaz]

The bad reactions are rare though, aren’t they, and travel vaccines can make you feel rotten for a day or two.

[Suff]

There is certainly a link between Crohnes and MMR. You just have to dig to find it. But she will be very aware of that.

As someone who has a family member with crippling Crohnes and Crohnes throughout that branch of the family (which I am very glad to have missed), I'd say that caution with it is warranted.

I suspect it is a viable reason. Although it will, eventually, be an issue.