Covid-19 within Europe.

[Workingman]

The only thing which stopped this virus in its tracks was a solid lockdown.

Except that it didn't, as your own other claim re Aus and NZ proved, and as I personally know having a daughter in Vietnam.

I'm going to keep posting this image till it filters through. Vaccines work. Masks don't.

OK, here's a modified version:

The 53% claim was in conjunction with other measures, but you are so against that you don't want to know.

You do your own thing and if the French lock you out of places, so be it. I'll do the mask wearing as it's hardly a chore and get the taste of some sort of freedom. And, yes, I will wear my Halo with pride knowing that I am chipping in for the benefit of us all - even the anti-maskers.

[Suff]

I'm not locked out of anywhere. We show our pass, go in, sit down and take the masks off.

Job done.

You just made my case exactly. That first blip, we had masks, we had hand washing, we had distancing but we didn't have a lockdown. We also had pitiful testing and no way to know just how many people were infected. The most vulnerable died. Mrs S didn't!

That box you show is exactly, absolutely, what I'm talking about. It tailed off with a lockdown. The Masks did nothing to stop the deaths. Just as they didn't in the second one. But the Vaccines did.

Thanks for making my point for me.

[Workingman]

I'm not locked out of anywhere. We show our pass...

And if you don't have a pass?

Keep trying. Masks are not perfect, not anything like 100%, nothing is, but they do help.

The only mask really worth having is a military grade full face respirator. As ex mil you know that, you also know that they are not available to all. But face masks do help. They stop *some* of your droplets getting to me and *some* of mine getting to you. It's not perfect but it is better than nothing.

So we keep going with them. Why you have a problem with that is a mystery to me. Do they stop you from living life in some way, curtail your freedom to breathe, hinder you in any way?

Of course they do not.

[cromwell]

It is just my opinion but I do think that we will have vaccine passports, either by coercion or by being made compulsory.
Essentially we will be forced into having a digital ID card, with all the possibilities that come with it.
Currently there is too much opposition, but give it a year or two of coercion and propaganda.

[TheOstrich]

We all seem to be very good about publishing tables and statistics in support of our various arguments, so I'll just give you one little fact.

The case rate in my town is 1048.8 for the 7 days to 17/11/21 (source: Gov.uk Interactive Map of Covid Cases). And it's still rising.

The national rate is 422.7

In this area, the double jab vaccination percentage is 81.5%. (No data on boosters)

So am I going to conclude that masks don't "work"? Yes I am.
Am I going to conclude vaccinations don't "work"? Yes I am.

Am I fully jabbed, including booster? - Yes
Am I still wearing a mask in shops and the High Street? - Yes
Am I socially distancing as best I can? - Yes
Using hand sanitisers where provided? - Yes

Every little helps. I just wish everyone else had a similar attitude ......

[cromwell]

Perhaps the focus on cases isn't helpful?
If hospitalizations and deaths are down that must be more important?

[Suff]

So we keep going with them. Why you have a problem with that is a mystery to me. Do they stop you from living life in some way, curtail your freedom to breathe, hinder you in any way?

Of course they do not.

I've told you this before but you and the government and just about everyone else simply doesn't care.

Mrs S is 80% clinically deaf, even with hearing aids she lip reads. The masks also interfere with her hearing aids and she regularly winds up with £2,500 worth of hearing aids on the floor.

I live with the mental destruction this causes on a daily basis.

Oh it's a crisis if someone who has a wheelchair can't get in and out of a supermarket, but someone who is deaf, has Claustrophobia and has to flee the store because it is not important enough to have a till with masks with a clear window in it? Tough.

They cause significant issues to huge numbers of people and nobody cares.

Selfish people who won't get a vaccine cause this by expecting everyone to "do something else" because they won't do the responsible thing.

So, no, I'm NOT in favour of a kludge that doesn't work and causes huge problems.

Disability act? Not if you are deaf.

[Workingman]

Perhaps the focus on cases isn't helpful?
If hospitalizations and deaths are down that must be more important?

I think that the case rate is being used in a number of ways.

It has been bubbling under at an average of about 40k for about three months and the rate is quite flat. This shows that we are on the right track, but it is also at a high enough level for us all to be warned (regularly) to be vigilant and not let our guard slip. Two birds, one stone. It is a useful tool for government especially now that the number of tests carried out has evened out.

Cases can also be used to correlate hospitalisations and deaths. Over the same three month period they are both flatlining as well at about 1000 and 150 daily respectively.

Effectively what we have is ~400k tests to ~40k cases to ~1000 hospital to ~150 deaths. The only number moving at any great rate is that for boosters and that is doubling month on month.

However, I do get the point that for the public the figures for hospitalisations and deaths are the ones that matter most. They are the ones I look for each day.

[Kaz]

I do agree with you on that Crommers, it’s the death rate that really matters.

[Workingman]

Kaz, I kind of agree, but for me they have to be referenced to something.

If we have 150 daily deaths and 198,000 daily Covid cases we are in 'man flu' territory. If we have 150 daily deaths and 12,750 cases we are in deep trouble. It's all relative.

However, I do agree that the government and media always zooming in on cases is not helpful.

I actually prefer a more rounded approach with all things considered.

Maybe that's just me.