Don't wait for our press to say this

[Suff]

WM I know your position. It was also mine. If we are IN then we get in there and MAKE things happen. There are plenty of minorities there to lead. However there is so much in the EU which is behind the UK, we would be forever clashing with the rest.

OK it could work, but not with the character of the UK and the UK politicians.

So we are where we are. We'll never be one of the club and we will never be an effective reformer on the sidelines.

So why stay?

Out of fear?

The UK has nothing to fear on the world stage. Something to lose? Maybe? But only in the short term and what would come of it would be stronger and more powerful in the end.

So we are left with the fudge. So that our political masters don't have to be responsible. After all, if they took us out, who would they have to blame when things didn't go right? Only themselves.

On UK terms I'd need an SNP equivalent. People who are more interested in our national identity and willing to fight for it. OK so that's part an Oxymoron because the SNP wants to get it's own independence only to surrender it again to an even bigger and unrepresentative EU...

But that's life in Politics isn't it.....

[Workingman]

But that's life in Politics isn't it.....

No, it is deception. The SNP wants to break up the UK union and immediately join the European Union... and that is not exactly a given. It is not Independence for Scotland, it is subjugation; it cannot be dressed up any other way. Scotland in the EU is NOT independent. A truly independent Scotland is not a member of any club, and those of us with working brain cells know that.

Whether the UK would be viable on the World stage is academic. We might lose in the short term, and we might come out the other side stronger, but nobody knows - all doors are open. Should we take the risk? Some of you think we should, I am not so sure.

[Suff]

No, it is deception.

Erm, my view of life in politics...

The SNP wants to break up the UK union and immediately join the European Union... and that is not exactly a given. It is not Independence for Scotland, it is subjugation;

Actually a very large group of Independence voters in Scotland have this view. Get independence first, sort the EU second. It is no given that Scotland would actually vote to go into the EU once it has independence. But I agree completely that to leave the UK and join the EU is nothing more than subjugation...

Should we take the risk? Some of you think we should, I am not so sure.

I'm a contractor. Have been for more than 2/3 of my working life now. That makes me a risk taker. I have to do the risk reward calculation every time I remain in this work.

So I'm used to doing a risk reward analysis which affects me personally.

My take is "Hell yes" we need to take the risk. Because, in reality, it is nothing more than a short term risk. The UK is far too large an economy and far too large a world power to be ignored or pushed into the back room. Otherwise we might just stand up and Veto every UN resolution for a month; just to remind the rest of the world who they are dealing with.... A world power.

That is my take on it.

[Workingman]

Suff. as an individual you can take the risk, or not.

If it pays off you, your immediate family and the places you shop all benefit. The country also benefits from your taxes. Do I benefit? Mathematically: yes. I get a share of your tax payments probably to the tune of one billionth of a trillionth of a penny.

If your choice does not pay off it is a disaster for you, your immediate family and the places you shop. It would not be a disaster for the country nor for me. I could survive without your billionth of trillionth of a penny, as could the country. Hard to say, but true.

For a country to take the risk is a different matter. We, as individuals, all take a share of that risk whether we wanted to or not. Sure, If it succeeds we all benefit, but if it fails we are all stuffed..... well, those who cannot leave are. It is not being too conservative to stick with the status-quo when there are huge uncertainties such as those that exist with leaving the EU.

[Suff]

It is no uncertainty that the UK, as the 6th largest economy in the entire world, would be able to function, work, grown and trade with everyone else.

Everything else is either FUD or in someone else's interest. Personally I don't care if the US thing it's a great thing to have the UK be their voice in the EU. If it's not good for the UK then the US can go join the EU and have their 28th of a vote in the EU on their own personal internal affairs.

NO?

Thought not.

There is virtually no risk of the UK failing if it exits the EU. The only possibilities are status quo or opportunity to improve.

Staying in the EU is a fear driven knee jerk reaction. There is nothing to fear being the #7 economy in the world trading and agreeing trade agreements directly. We don't need our trade agreements watered down with what is best for Estonia, or Germany for that matter.

[Aggers]

I have a feeling that it would be more sensible if our E.U. leaders would spend more time
in deciding what action to take to tackle the problem of the mass immigration of people
from Africa. A decision is urgently needed.

[Suff]

Since the EU failed to get it's Constitution passed, EU level discussions on immigration have been taboo. Basically because the "member" stated still see themselves as "nations" and cross EU work and living migration is seen as immigration. Which it is not.

They can't open one discussion without opening the other. So they make it a "moral" discussion (which, fundamentally, it is not) and nobody can win on those grounds...

[Workingman]

Italy's border is both it's International border and an EU border.

Under International law neither the EU nor Italy have to take in the majority of the boat people: very few of them are refugees. It is the lily-livered liberal thought process, which refuses to sanction the turning back of the boats and then their destruction, that is one of the main causes of the problem, and that is not unique to the EU.

It will probably take action by local populations to change the political decisions and cries of "racists" and "xenophobes" and worse, will have no effect whatsoever.

[Workingman]

If there is any doubt then look at the government's Detained Fast Track system. It has just been thrown out by Judges as unlawful.

This is happening under our rules, which means bringing in new laws and probably repealing the old ones.

We can detain these criminals because we know they have no case to answer re asylum/immigration, yet we cannot get rid of them until every i is dotted and t crossed. It matters not that we know they ditch their identities at the first safe opportunity to make the paper trail impossible to follow.

[Suff]

There is a way of dealing with this, but the liberals would be up in arms.

Give them a choice.

1. go into a "prison" system (yes we'd have to build it), until they give us verifiable details as to who they are and where they came from
2. Leave and go somewhere else

Option1 would be permanent, no TV, no "benefits" and they'd have to work for their food and keep until they gave verifiable details.

If they chose option1, then when they finally gave up and verified themselves, we could then work though the process of deciding whether to give them asylum. All the while they would be in "prison" and working for their keep.

I know it's harsh but, honestly, who says we have to give them full run of the country as if they came here legally and with our consent? Otherwise they're criminals and should be treated as such.